CHP officer among 4 killed in Santee crash

[gabriel]

CBS8 reports:

A California Highway Patrol officer was among the four people killed Friday when their vehicle crashed, sparking a small brush fire in Santee.

http://www.cbs8.com/Global/story.asp?S=11013075

More on this:

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/aug/30/bn30chp192249/

Horrible news, I guess details are still emerging but the CHP in El Cajon has confirmed it.

R.I.P. Officer Mark Saylor

[canIbeCHP]

I heard about this yesterday. Horrible. r.i.p.

[PapaBear]

Here is another story:


CHP veteran among four thought to be victims of Friday crash
By Craig Gustafson

San Diego Union-Tribune Staff Writer
7:22 p.m. August 30, 2009

A 19-year veteran of the California Highway Patrol and three relatives have been identified as the likely victims of a crash Friday that left four dead in Santee.

CHP officials on Sunday said that off-duty officer Mark Saylor, 45, is believed to be the driver of a loaned Lexus that collided with a Ford Explorer about 6:35 p.m. at state Route 125 and Mission Gorge Road.

The Lexus continued through the intersection, hitting a concrete curb and going through a picket fence. The car then hit a dirt embankment which launched it into the air. It rolled several times before coming to a stop in a dry patch of the San Diego River basin where it erupted in flames.

The other victims, riding in the Lexus, were identified as Saylor's wife, Cleofe, 45; daughter, Mahala, 13; and brother-in-law, Chris Lastrella, 38. The Saylors lived in Chula Vista.

None have been positively identified by the Medical Examiner's Office because they were burned beyond recognition, but CHP officials were confident of the identities after the initial investigation found that Mark Saylor had checked out the vehicle.

Investigators say the crash was reported about two minutes after a CHP dispatcher received a 911 call from one of the Lexus' passengers - most likely Saylor's wife - to report that the car's accelerator was stuck and they couldn't stop, said CHP spokesman Brian Pennings.

A witness told authorities that the Lexus was going at a speed in excess of 100 miles per hour.

Pennings, who knew Saylor personally, said the accident is a tremendous loss for San Diego County.

"We may not ever know exactly what happened and why it happened, but I have to believe he did everything he could," Pennings said. "Officer Saylor was well-respected amongst his peers. He was a highly competent and outstanding officer."

Saylor began his CHP career in 1989 at its West Valley station in Los Angeles. He later worked at the El Cajon station before his current post at CHP headquarters in downtown San Diego.

As part of his administrative job, Saylor conducted safety inspections for armored trucks, tow trucks and ambulances.

The CHP had few details about the other victims. Relatives of the Saylors could not be reached on Sunday.

Both the Lexus and Ford Explorer were traveling northbound on 125, which ends in a T-intersection with Mission Gorge Road in Santee. The Explorer was turning left onto Mission Gorge when the Lexus hit it from behind, authorities said. The traffic light was green.

"That vehicle (Lexus) was burned beyond recognition. The only thing left from the vehicle that was identifiable was the left rear tire - you could make out the L," Pennings said.

Pennings said he didn't know where the Saylors were heading or why they were driving a loaned vehicle. He also couldn't say if the car came from a rental company, dealership or mechanic shop.

An investigator with the Medical Examiner's Office said that the office would not positively identify the bodies for several days, after an analysis of DNA and dental records is expected to finished.

[AyatollahGondola]

Most unfortunate and very sad,

I know there is usually doubt about stuck throttles, but over 30 years ago I had an old 4 barrel carbuerated oldsmobile that did exactly that when pressed to the floor. I ended up finding the problem that was the wrong linkage supplied by the rebuilder when they did the work. Doesn't take much of an error to alter the course of mechanical devices.

[wannabehp]

Horrible, horrible, horrible.
RIP officer.
Prayers to the family...

[bcjack]

May they all rest in peace.

[LadyVol@330]

Oh, this is so sad. I send my caring thoughts to the families and to all who worked with and knew Officer Saylor. This is a very tragic event to endure. I know that the CHP family will remain strong and helpful at a time like this.

[jrsfan]

When I heard this news yesterday I could not believe how horrific it was. My thoughts and prayers are with their remaining family, friends, and the office.

[parrunk24]

R.I.P. Sad how something like that can occur. Just Terrible :sad:

[A.P.]

This happened down the street from my house. Apparently the Lexus had a push-button start which is one of the reasons why he couldn't shut the car off. Unfortunately, it sounds like the Lexus had some major defects in the computer. The Northbound 125 right there has a pretty big decline which would easly cause speeds in excess of 100 MPH. My thoughts and prayers are with the family.

[PSDGirl]

We were watching this on the CAD as it was occuring. What a terrible, terrible outcome. My prayers and thoughts are with the entire family and those that responded to the scene of one of their own.

RIP

[alexfarrington]

Prayin' for Officer Saylor's blood relatives and his extended CHP family, the responders and the call taker/dispatcher that was on the phone with Mrs. Saylor...

And for those of you with the money to spare in these rough economic times, don't forget about the CAHP Widows and Orphans' Trust Fund (http://www.thecahp.org/index.cfm/cahp_wo_fund.htm) -- while it's always there, it seems many don't think about it until tragedy strikes. I think we should all try do do what we can, even if it's only a few dollars. Every little bit helps.

[30Mary3]

911 tape was released today on the san diego Union-Tribune
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/sep/10/bn10-911call-fatal-crash/?metro&zIndex=163775

[BoySergeant]

911 tape was released today on the san diego Union-Tribune
http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/sep/10/bn10-911call-fatal-crash/?metro&zIndex=163775

I'm speechless. That was horrible to hear. My thoughts are with those who loved, knew, and called them friends or family.

[AyatollahGondola]

Why were there no brakes though? When my accel stuck, I still had brakes, although they were lessened by horsepower.

[SB 405]

A stuck floor mat? I'd hate to think it could have been something so simple.

[Yzeman]

Why were there no brakes though? When my accel stuck, I still had brakes, although they were lessened by horsepower.There were brakes at first...witnesses reported flames from the wheels (way overheated brakes), and he was able at first to get the car slowed down. Brake fade combined with a loss of vacuum from pumping the brakes...very difficult to think of those in the car, so very sad.

[JCH]

I had this exact situation happen to me.

I was in high school working at the local car wash. While I was walking toward a brand new land rover, gettin ready to dry it off, a co worker of mine jumped in the driver seat to pull it up to me. What he didnt realize is that the person that put the rubber floor mat back in the car after vacuuming it had accidentally put the mat in, in such a way that when you push down on the brake it consequently pushes down on the accelerator. The floor mat was under the brake but over the accelerator. So no matter how hard you pushed down on that brake you were also pushing down on the accelerator. The land rover had a big V8 engine that easily over powered the brakes. The vehicle jolted forward right into me. Completely totaled the vehicle against the car wash building concrete wall and another vehicle. I escaped with only minor injuries.

What I remember from that is this... no matter how hard you push on that brake when you have a thick rubber floor mat in such a way that it pushes down on your accelerator... your car is going to keep going forward.

In this situation you would think "why wouldnt he just turn it off" Well it sounds like it's pretty complicated to turn it off let alone turn it on. I guess you have to hold some button down. This was a loaner car, a car he wasnt familiar with and used to driving.

We can learn a great deal from this and educate ourselves and our friends/family on what to do when presented with this situation. Run the scenarios through your head. Think what you would do if you couldnt turn the car off like in this situation.

At first I was freaked out thinking about that car screaming toward me... now I look back and am glad because I check my floor mats every time I get in a car not matter whos it is.

[AyatollahGondola]

There were brakes at first...witnesses reported flames from the wheels (way overheated brakes), and he was able at first to get the car slowed down. Brake fade combined with a loss of vacuum from pumping the brakes...very difficult to think of those in the car, so very sad.
Is currently formulated brake fluid flammable? I know from experience that it used to be back in the..uh.......early 70's where I lost a wheel and axel, and then hit the brakes. The fluid lit up and left a trail of fire behind me.
I have experienced brake fade too. about ten years or more ago, I used to tow an 18 foot flatbed fifth wheel in tandem with another trailer that was only ten feet, with a ford f-350 gas engine. I loaded them all pretty heavy once and climbed the grade from LA northbound. The downhill tour did the brakes in. I ended up getting it stopped, but not without some very, very serious stress. I had electric brakes on all the trailer wheels(double axles each), but they just weren't big enough to handle the load downhill for that distance, and that gas engine offers little resistance.

[gabriel]

I'm speechless. That was horrible to hear. My thoughts are with those who loved, knew, and called them friends or family.

There is nothing else to say but rest, rest in peace.

[AyatollahGondola]

I had this exact situation happen to me.

I was in high school working at the local car wash. While I was walking toward a brand new land rover, gettin ready to dry it off, a co worker of mine jumped in the driver seat to pull it up to me. What he didnt realize is that the person that put the rubber floor mat back in the car after vacuuming it had accidentally put the mat in, in such a way that when you push down on the brake it consequently pushes down on the accelerator. The floor mat was under the brake but over the accelerator. So no matter how hard you pushed down on that brake you were also pushing down on the accelerator. The land rover had a big V8 engine that easily over powered the brakes. The vehicle jolted forward right into me. Completely totaled the vehicle against the car wash building concrete wall and another vehicle. I escaped with only minor injuries.

What I remember from that is this... no matter how hard you push on that brake when you have a thick rubber floor mat in such a way that it pushes down on your accelerator... your car is going to keep going forward.

In this situation you would think "why wouldnt he just turn it off" Well it sounds like it's pretty complicated to turn it off let alone turn it on. I guess you have to hold some button down. This was a loaner car, a car he wasnt familiar with and used to driving.

We can learn a great deal from this and educate ourselves and our friends/family on what to do when presented with this situation. Run the scenarios through your head. Think what you would do if you couldnt turn the car off like in this situation.

At first I was freaked out thinking about that car screaming toward me... now I look back and am glad because I check my floor mats every time I get in a car not matter whos it is.

Did they believe you at first?

On the brakes thing, back in the 60's 70's era, there was this thing called powerbraking. you'd lock the brakes down and begin accelerating until the rear tires started to screech and spin. the brakes never let go though. Maybe it's different after the wheels are already turning, and one thing is different these days is brakes are not as good after asbestos was banned

[Vinnie]

That's fine and dandy when your power axle (rear) is different than the primary braking wheels (front), but when they're both the same, that complicates things. A 300 hp engine pushing the front wheels makes it considerably difficult to brake that same axle.

[carcop]

I heard the recording of the 911 call yesterday as I drove home. Made me come to tears. Still does. "Terrible" doesn't even say enough. May they rest in peace.

I pray the investigation serves them justice. I can't believe it's a floormat.
:cry:

[canIbeCHP]

As far as seeing flames coming from the tires, I think of my time in the Navy being around planes and actually witnessing "hot breaks". At those speeds those break pads are going to be finished quick. So straight caliper on rotor, im sure there will be sparks or flames at those speeds.....

As several people already stated....R.I.P ....theres not much more that can be said. God bless everybody in that vehicle and their family! Officer Saylor, THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE IN CHP !


I heard the recording of the 911 call yesterday as I drove home. Made me come to tears. Still does. "Terrible" doesn't even say enough. May they rest in peace.

I pray the investigation serves them justice. I can't believe it's a floormat.
:cry:

[CTCIII-82]

Why were there no brakes though? When my accel stuck, I still had brakes, although they were lessened by horsepower.

If he was using them over and over trying to stop... I believe there were reports of his wheels smoking.. the brakes o/heated...

[AyatollahGondola]

If he was using them over and over trying to stop... I believe there were reports of his wheels smoking.. the brakes o/heated...
This reminded me of something, and I found this in relation.


The amount of moisture in brake fluid definitely affects its performance. The big problem is it is absorbs moisture quickly. Over a relatively short period of time brake fluid will absorb moisture from the air. SAE field tests have shown that the average one year old car has 2% moisture in the fluid. A random test of vehicles in the U.S. showed an average water content of 2.6% for vehicles with an average age of 8 years. And 25% of these vehicles had water content greater than 4%.

As water content in brake fluid increases over time, the boiling point decreases. Fluid with a reduced boiling point (or high water content) can create vapor by boiling in the caliper, or wheel cylinder. The result is sudden brake failure. And water in the brake fluid can contribute to corrosion of parts such as steel pistons and ABS modulators.
The end result is even though DOT 3 fluid is "rated" at greater than 401oF, in the typical 3 to 4 year old car with 3 to 4% moisture content, it could boil under 300oF. And if it has got more than 4% moisture, you may as well be running straight water!
Moral: Flush your brake fluid every year or so. But only if you would like it to work well scarcely an inch away from those toasty 500oF rotors on your SHO during a couple of hard stops! Or would you rather have a squishy pedal? Technical data courtesy of Leica Refractometers. www.leica-ead.com (http://www.leica-ead.com).


http://www.shotimes.com/SHO3brakefluid.html

[PH3N@M]

That's fine and dandy when your power axle (rear) is different than the primary braking wheels (front), but when they're both the same, that complicates things. A 300 hp engine pushing the front wheels makes it considerably difficult to brake that same axle.

Even if you have a 1,000 hp if you put the car in neutral its much easier to stop. They have rev limiters now that will not allow the engine to over rev. and cause engine damage. Its much better than turning off the car and loosing engine vacuum and power steering.

This is simply tragic.

[Vinnie]

We have no idea how hard it is to shift a car under full acceleration into neutral and disengage those gears. Plus, if the computer controlling all those things had malfunctioned, it may not have been possible at all, particularly stopping the engine with the computerized power off button (how many times have you had to unplug your PC to make it stop?).

This makes me sick every time I think about it... makes me think twice about drive-by-wire controls as well.

[bcjack]

Toyota orders inspections after deadly SoCal crash

http://www.bakersfieldnow.com/news/local/59377162.html

KBAK Television Bakersfield

[dw]

So, I never heard of the "push and hold" the start/stop button to force shutdown of newer automated cars until this incident. Tried it the other day on the BMW with a start button. Press the button in motion, nothing. Press and hold it and after about two seconds -- bam, everything shuts down. Very good information to know.

...and yes, there is plenty of reserve vacuum to safely and easily brake to a controlled stop and as long as you're not planning to try a three-point turn, the lack of power steering really doesn't matter while the vehicle is rolling.

[Mac]

The incident was indeed a tragedy.

In my opinion, the news media obtaining the 911 tape, then releasing it to the public, is a new low in sensationalist "yellow journalism" (and I use the word "journalism" in the loosest possible sense). There is no other reason to release such a thing for the general public to hear. I'd feel the same whether the victim was an officer or a member of the general public. I feel it was filthy, reprehensible and sleazy of the media.

Happily, I'm not alone in my sentiments. A woman approached me while I was at work the other day and expressed her condolences for the loss of our officer and his family. She also mentioned that she had heard the 911 tape on the news and thought it was a terrible thing for them to do....she asked why the CHP even released the tape to the media, and I explained that the Department had no choice in the matter. She said that she was shocked by it and that she and her family were boycotting the local television station that aired it because they felt it was so inappropriate.

[AyatollahGondola]

The incident was indeed a tragedy.

In my opinion, the news media obtaining the 911 tape, then releasing it to the public, is a new low in sensationalist "yellow journalism" (and I use the word "journalism" in the loosest possible sense). There is no other reason to release such a thing for the general public to hear. I'd feel the same whether the victim was an officer or a member of the general public. I feel it was filthy, reprehensible and sleazy of the media.

Happily, I'm not alone in my sentiments. A woman approached me while I was at work the other day and expressed her condolences for the loss of our officer and his family. She also mentioned that she had heard the 911 tape on the news and thought it was a terrible thing for them to do....she asked why the CHP even released the tape to the media, and I explained that the Department had no choice in the matter. She said that she was shocked by it and that she and her family were boycotting the local television station that aired it because they felt it was so inappropriate.
Why? Don't you think the educational value might override what you mentioned. The 9-11 tapes could very well be the same. If those were never aired, we all might not know how profound things really were, and that event could have been lost on the American people as something with a human face painted on it. I get your feelings on the media, and in many ways agree, but sometimes a tainted messenger still does something right.

[gabriel]

Why? Don't you think the educational value might override what you mentioned. The 9-11 tapes could very well be the same. If those were never aired, we all might not know how profound things really were, and that event could have been lost on the American people as something with a human face painted on it. I get your feelings on the media, and in many ways agree, but sometimes a tainted messenger still does something right.

Pray tell, what is the educational value of the contents of this particular 911 tape? I hardly believe that the contents of the audio revealed anything that could not have otherwise been found during investigation.

[cjincognito]

Why? Don't you think the educational value might override what you mentioned.

No, I don't. As a matter of fact, I did NOT listen to the tape. It is none of my business and I do not have a morbid curiosity to listen to people in their last moments of life. I was apauled when I found out it was broadcast. I agree with Mac, that it wouldn't have mattered if it was an Officer or just any other citizen. I ONLY listen to 911 tapes when they are relevant to a case that I am investigating. Putting any 911 tape on the air is only a dirty ploy by the media to get ratings. Lessons could be learned by paraphrasing or transcription of relevant data.

[SB 405]

The media loves using 911 tapes for ratings. How many times have you heard on a news broadcast..."Coming up we'll have the chilling 911 call of a Mother killing her children" etc...Now what educational value does that have on me?

[AyatollahGondola]

OK, since you asked,

Many officers and other people here have stated they feel the media slants things. Now here they are presenting facts that were presumably not altered, so in the very least they are not writing up something based upon journalistic interpretations. It's the public info, and people can make up their own minds as opposed to the media giving them their interpretation


Pray tell, what is the educational value of the contents of this particular 911 tape? I hardly believe that the contents of the audio revealed anything that could not have otherwise been found during investigation

Well, we've all been discussing the educational value. What really happened, what might have been the cause, what other experiences we've all had that might be relevent, and possible precautions. Now some have admitted not listening to the tape, so they, and others are basing thier thoughts upon the words of others. If the media is suspect as slanted, biased, or incompetent, then why would you want them to get true information from their writers as opposed to listening and basing their thoughts upon facts?
I do agree it is somewhat ghastly to listen or see the last words or actions of people in crisis, but....life is very dramatic, and do we try and shelter everyone, or educate them?

[SB 405]

Yes AG not altered because it's good dirty laundry on it's own,so why mess with it? As far as media interpretation goes. I think we have beat that to death here in other threads so I'll leave it alone.

[AyatollahGondola]

Yes AG not altered because it's good dirty laundry on it's own,so why mess with it?.
This is not dirty laundry at all. The victims did nothing wrong knowingly. I think you may have meant good drama, and that's somewhat applicable if motive is at issue where the press is concerned

[cjincognito]

Now some have admitted not listening to the tape, so they, and others are basing thier thoughts upon the words of others. If the media is suspect as slanted, biased, or incompetent, then why would you want them to get true information from their writers as opposed to listening and basing their thoughts upon facts?

Since I am one of the "some" I'll take a stab at this...I still trust the media enough to present some fact. I try to remember what I have learned over the years to weed out the spin that a lot of media outlets mix in with the facts. In this case, I trust the media to say, car crashed, people died, 911 tapes indicated the occupants of the vehicle were reporting the throttle was stuck wide open and they could not stop. That's newsworthy in my opinion. I don't need the tapes myself to give me that data. Now, I trust the investigating agencies involved to do a thorough job in determining what happened. If in fact the throttle stuck, I expect the manufacturer to do the right thing too. Apparently Toyota has already begun that by ordering all Toyota and Lexus dealerships to check floor mats in their fleets and comply with a known recall from last year. (Also reported by the media). As far as education, I'll gleen what value I can from the information I have and hope and pray that this does not befall anyone else.

[AyatollahGondola]

Doesn't playing the tape paint a more human face on the victims? Thousands of people die in traffic collisions of some type each year in this country. So many, that they become simple statistics to people just reading a few sentences as directed by an editor.
As a side note, I'd also point out that media is quite beholden to the auto manufacturers by way of income from advertisement.

[SB 405]

To be honest knowing it's a person and some of his family members is all I need to know. I don't need a more human face on anyone.

[TheForceCHP]

AG I'm going to be blunt in this

I agree with what others posted in that it does not help in this situation to post the audio.

Food for thought though (just thought of this while typing). Some might remember the big controversy over the pictures of the girl who killed herself in a car crash on the toll roads. Would you provide the same argument to that girls family that much can be learned from showing the horrible pictures of that scene? In all honesty at least that girls pictures might scare somebody into being safer. How does the audio tape even do that?

[AyatollahGondola]

AG I'm going to be blunt in this

I agree with what others posted in that it does not help in this situation to post the audio.

Food for thought though (just thought of this while typing). Some might remember the big controversy over the pictures of the girl who killed herself in a car crash on the toll roads. Would you provide the same argument to that girls family that much can be learned from showing the horrible pictures of that scene? In all honesty at least that girls pictures might scare somebody into being safer. How does the audio tape even do that?
I would have to answer that by asking how many people knew about the event, or paid attention to it prior to the release of the tape. It is my opinion that America is so showered with news, mostly advertisement, that it takes rather dramatic and profound methods to rise above it and interest them. My own experience with advertising and interaction with people during it have taught me that. Based upon our discussions of the tragedy, some of us here are now aware that new cars are not as easily stalled as older ones, and stopping a full throttle car may take more than what comes naturally from the driver. And this was a highly trained driver, with probably three other people giving their advice too.

As to your reference to the suicide: If you kill yourself in public, there's a bit less right to privacy. Her thoughts on this were obviously to be as public as possible. I'm not well versed enough in psychiatric matters to know if the educational value acts as a deterrent to others, but maybe some parents might have had their eyes opened by it enough to save a few lives in the years after.

[TheForceCHP]

Based upon our discussions of the tragedy, some of us here are now aware that new cars are not as easily stalled as older ones, and stopping a full throttle car may take more than what comes naturally from the driver. And this was a highly trained driver, with probably three other people giving their advice too.

You have hit the nail on the head in my opinion. You learned all of the above based on discussion of the incident and by news stories posted. I agree as I also learned about how to turn my own car off, haven't tried it yet, and don't even remember that info. being in the owner's manual. BUT none of the tragic education that we have all received due to this collision was learned from the audio tape.

I'm :closed:

[AyatollahGondola]

You have hit the nail on the head in my opinion. You learned all of the above based on discussion of the incident and by news stories posted. I agree as I also learned about how to turn my own car off, haven't tried it yet, and don't even remember that info. being in the owner's manual. BUT none of the tragic education that we have all received due to this collision was learned from the audio tape.

I'm :closed:

Not everyone reads this forum you know. And you're a trained observer, so you get more out of less. The General population is not up to that standard. You issue them citation after citation, and yet they still speed in the rain, drink alcohol and drive, and weave in and out of traffic while driving to their hair salon appointment. We're up against a very busy world out there. Coca Cola gets their attention because they have dedicated an enormous portion of their income towards advertisement. We have crumbs from our broke government. I'll take the dramatic public info that gets distributed by a self-serving media in cases like this.

[Mac]

...Now some have admitted not listening to the tape, so they, and others are basing thier thoughts upon the words of others.
I'm one of the "some" who intentionally did not listen to the tape. I have no need to - I know what it contains and I don't have any desire or curiosity to hear it. I'm not at the North Pole at the moment either, but I'm pretty sure I can trust the "words of others" when they tell me there's snow and ice there right now.

If the media is suspect as slanted, biased, or incompetent, then why would you want them to get true information from their writers as opposed to listening and basing their thoughts upon facts?
The only "true information" to be had from that tape is to listen to the desperation and horror of four people in the last seconds of their lives. There is nothing whatsoever educational or redeeming in that. While there is plenty to be learned from the incident itself, the 911 tape is not educational - in my opinion it's ratings-grabbing yellow journalism, plain and simple.

I do agree it is somewhat ghastly to listen or see the last words or actions of people in crisis, but....life is very dramatic, and do we try and shelter everyone, or educate them?
Then why don't they just start showing dismembered, decapitated and disemboweled bodies on the five o'clock news? Why not televise the brutal murders captured on video? There's a difference between "sheltering" and "going beyond the bounds of common decency", IMO.

For that matter, how about going back to public executions? Plenty of drama there, and even some educational/deterrent effect - but I don't see any rush to schedule them during primetime yet.

[AyatollahGondola]

I'm one of the "some" who intentionally did not listen to the tape. I have no need to - I know what it contains and I don't have any desire or curiosity to hear it. I'm not at the North Pole at the moment either, but I'm pretty sure I can trust the "words of others" when they tell me there's snow and ice there right now.


The only "true information" to be had from that tape is to listen to the desperation and horror of four people in the last seconds of their lives. There is nothing whatsoever educational or redeeming in that. While there is plenty to be learned from the incident itself, the 911 tape is not educational - in my opinion it's ratings-grabbing yellow journalism, plain and simple.


Then why don't they just start showing dismembered, decapitated and disemboweled bodies on the five o'clock news? Why not televise the brutal murders captured on video? There's a difference between "sheltering" and "going beyond the bounds of common decency", IMO.

For that matter, how about going back to public executions? Plenty of drama there, and even some educational/deterrent effect - but I don't see any rush to schedule them during primetime yet.
I think what he have here is the opinions of people whose jobs it is to be immersed in the subject matter in question, so it stands to reason many here would have had their fill of it, and especially so in the case of a fellow worker. If that's the case, I do sympathize. Surely there are decency standards, or else we'd have nudists teaching in classrooms while practicing their...uh...religion. I don't know if theirs a true value in this event, but I do believe it should be left up to us to listen or no.
Public hangings Mac? You betcha. I'm not only for it, but I'd be willing to help with an initiative to get it on the ballot in this state

[cjincognito]

I think what he have here is the opinions of people whose jobs it is to be immersed in the subject matter in question, so it stands to reason many here would have had their fill of it, and especially so in the case of a fellow worker.

True, I've had my fill, but it has nothing to do with his profession. I did not know him, but I wish I had. Hell, I may even suggest his family sue because the government forced the Department to release the tape to the media. The suit method worked for the family of the dead girl in the Porche. And no, that wasn't a suicide, unless you consider DUI suicide. Hmm, side note...less paperwork for a suicide than for an "accident." :think:

I do believe it should be left up to us to listen or no.

Sure, then submit the paperwork to get a freedom of information request and get your own personal copy. But the evening news? For the "masses," no. They can buffer us, just like they buffer us from the "graphic" material.

Public hangings Mac? You betcha. I'm not only for it, but I'd be willing to help with an initiative to get it on the ballot in this state

Good luck with that... viva la revolution and welcome back to the dark ages!

[AyatollahGondola]

If it took an individual request for each incident, little to no info would be available. The press is not the enemy; some interests that control it are a problem at present. If you concede control to some entity that distributes your information, how can you complain about it when they protect others to the point of being biased towards you?
I distribute information, and I get flack about it from families/individuals. But it has helped many others who learned from it. It's been my experience that the positive effects outweigh the negative ones in the long run. I put my own out there too, not just to avoid the specter of hypocrisy, but too gauge the effects of doing so.

Curious though. Why would you think that public executions would lead us to the dark ages?

[dw]

Did not hear the tapes, no interest, will continue to avoid them.

Wholeheartedly disagree with AG.

Not going to close thread, but ask others to realize you're not likely to change AG's opinion.

[gabriel]

...

Not going to close thread, but ask others to realize you're not likely to change AG's opinion.

lol thanks for that reminder.

[AyatollahGondola]

Wholeheartedly disagree with AG.
So it's not just rumor? You admit having a heart:biggrin:

For the record, I haven't listened to the tape either. I just believe in giving the option to others.

[Mom]

Did not hear the tapes, no interest, will continue to avoid them.

Wholeheartedly disagree with AG.

Not going to close thread, but ask others to realize you're not likely to change AG's opinion.I did not and will not listen to the tapes. I don't need to hear the horror. I accidentally saw the remains of the car on the news, that was more than enough. I really do not understand why someone would want to listen to this tape.

[Lilrecruit21]

I did not and will not listen to the tapes. I don't need to hear the horror. I accidentally saw the remains of the car on the news, that was more than enough. I really do not understand why someone would want to listen to this tape.


This was on Fox News today...interesting. I believe the car this officer and his family were in may have been one of these, as Toyota owns Lexus, and there was the possibility of the floormat causing this.:sad:


"The Transportation Department says owners should take out the floor mats on the driver's side and not replace them.
The consumer alert affects 2007-2010 model year Toyota Camry, 2005-2010 Toyota Avalon, 2004-2009 Toyota Prius, 2005-2010 Tacoma, 2007-2010 Toyota Tundra, 2007-2010 Lexus ES350 and 2006-2010 Lexus IS250 and IS350."

[uman18]

On yahoo also.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090929/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_floor_mats

WASHINGTON – Toyota says it will recall 3.8 million vehicles in the United States to address problems with a removable floor mat that could interfere with the vehicle's accelerator and cause a crash. The company says it will be the largest U.S. recall in its history. Owners could learn about the safety campaign as early as next week.
Toyota and the government warned owners of Toyota and Lexus vehicles about safety problems tied to the removable floor mats. They say the mats could interfere with the vehicle's accelerator and cause a crash.
The recall will affect 2007-2010 model year Toyota Camry, 2005-2010 Toyota Avalon, 2004-2009 Toyota Prius, 2005-2010 Tacoma, 2007-2010 Toyota Tundra, 2007-2010 Lexus ES350 and 2006-2010 Lexus IS250 and IS350.
Owners should take out the floor mats on the driver's side and not replace them.
Toyota's previously largest U.S. recall was about 900,000 vehicles in 2005 to fix a steering issue.

[LadyVol@330]

Our news broadcasts actually mentioned Officer Saylor's accident, although not by name. I cannot even imagine.......

[SB 405]

Not only did my local broadcast mention Officer Saylor by name. They made a point of playing the entire 911 call while talking about the floor mats.

[CTC III-05]

Yes, ABC7 did play the 911 tape during the story about the floormat recall. The passenger is doing most of the talking, but you do hear Officer Saylor in the background. May he and his family rest in peace. Very sad indeed.

[AyatollahGondola]

well, let's hope the recall prevents any recurrances of this event.

[AyatollahGondola]

While there is plenty to be learned from the incident itself, the 911 tape is not educational - in my opinion it's ratings-grabbing yellow journalism, plain and simple.
You know, I meant to ask you: what is "yellow journalism"?

[HonkingAntelope]

The media loves using 911 tapes for ratings. How many times have you heard on a news broadcast..."Coming up we'll have the chilling 911 call of a Mother killing her children" etc...Now what educational value does that have on me?

The education value of that particular story is that money talks, BS walks. Ratings == money. Any questions?

Other than that, I have a lot of mixed thoughts on this story and comments upthread, so apologies if this post is hard to follow.

As for the situation with the less-than-intuitive engine cutoff procedure, I think it's a case of well-intentioned design gone bad. I can understand why the manufacturer didn't want the liability of crashes resulting from an accidental bump to the 'power button.' Very few people (especially if they haven't completed an EVO-type class) would be able to adequately address an unexpected engine outage (plus power steering/brake assist loss) due accidental bump on the start button under most conditions. Also consider that most women have a lot less upper-body strength than men, as well.

Yes, there are many things the driver of the veh could have done in this case, IF he had the benefit of a few hours' worth of monday morning quarterbacking. Yes, just about any vehicle with an automatic transmission will shift effortlessly into neutral even at speeds well above 100mph. Yes, the driver of the vehicle could have held down the shutoff button for a few seconds the same way you do when you have a wedged up PC that you need to force-poweroff.

I'm only a civillian, but I've been through a few dicy situations while on the road, and when TSHTF around you, it's a whole different story from guessing out what could've been done after reading the news reports of the same incident.

To quote the late David Hackworth,

"I've been in a fair number of battles in my lifetime, first fighting for my country in several hot wars, then covering a dozen conflicts as a correspondent. And I've learned that if you can't see the fight right up close, smell it, hear it and touch it, you can't possibly bear witness."

[Mac]

You know, I meant to ask you: what is "yellow journalism"?
Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism

Quoted in part for reference:

Yellow journalism is a type of journalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journalism) that downplays legitimate news in favor of eye-catching headlines that sell more newspapers. It may feature exaggerations of news events, scandal-mongering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandal), sensationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensationalism), or unprofessional practices by news media organizations or journalists.

...By extension the term is used today as a pejorative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pejorative) to decry any journalism that treats news in an unprofessional or unethical fashion, such as systematic political bias. Yellow journalism can also be the practice of over-dramatizing events.

[AyatollahGondola]

Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_journalism

Quoted in part for reference:

Ahh. I see. I was expecting to see something related to cowardice.

[gabriel]

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/oct/26/bn26saylor13229/?metro&zIndex=189353


By Debbi Baker
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
1:22 p.m. October 26, 2009

A federal report on the fiery high-speed Lexus crash that killed a California Highway Patrol officer and his family found the accelerator was stuck to an unsecured and incorrect floor mat and that the design of the gas pedal may have contributed to the crash.

Investigators with the National Highway Safety Traffic Administration said the plastic pedal, a rigid, one-piece lever, has no hinge and therefore “no means for relieving forces caused by interferences.”

[...]

[emcviper]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_toyota_floor_mats

[HIPCHIP]

http://my.att.net/s/editorial.dll?pnum=1&bfromind=7406&eeid=6978694&_sitecat=1522&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=0&ck=&ch=ne&rg=blsadstrgt&_lid=332&_lnm=tg+ne+topnews&ck=

Update on vehicle involved in crash.

"SAN DIEGO (AP) - A customer complained of gas-pedal problems with a dealership's loaner Lexus three days before the same car accelerated out of control and killed a California Highway Patrol officer and three family members, a report obtained Friday said."

[SB 405]

Note the finger pointing.

[emcviper]

http://my.att.net/s/editorial.dll?pnum=1&bfromind=7406&eeid=6978694&_sitecat=1522&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=0&ck=&ch=ne&rg=blsadstrgt&_lid=332&_lnm=tg+ne+topnews&ck=

Update on vehicle involved in crash.

"SAN DIEGO (AP) - A customer complained of gas-pedal problems with a dealership's loaner Lexus three days before the same car accelerated out of control and killed a California Highway Patrol officer and three family members, a report obtained Friday said."
That makes me so sad. Maybe that's what "Preventable" meant about his username in the CTC I-10 thread...

[SB 405]

I read most of the 29 page San Diego Sheriff's Department final report on this incident (it's on the internet) The report goes into great detail.

[gabriel]

I read most of the 29 page San Diego Sheriff's Department final report on this incident (it's on the internet) The report goes into great detail.

You got a link by chance? PM if you see fit.

[SB 405]

You got a link by chance? PM if you see fit.

It was on my AOL home page yesterday but that page changes every hour,so it's gone. When I say great detail I don't mean that in a macob way. What I ment was every minute and every action taken by the investigators was documented.

[gabriel]

It was on my AOL home page yesterday but that page changes every hour,so it's gone. When I say great detail I don't mean that in a macob way. What I ment was every minute and every action taken by the investigators was documented.

Ok. I understood what you meant, my interest isn't in anything gory. I just don't trust news agencies. For the life of me I cannot find the report. All the news outlets say "San Diego Sheriff report says this and it says that."

[LadyVol@330]

I found it --I have AOL too, but got this off page 2 of Google for the Sheriff's Dept.:

http://autos.aol.com/gallery/saylor-crash-report

[gabriel]

Thank you LadyVol.