Protest in L.A.

[CHP1]

I know that immigration has been discussed in the past, but I just want to know what each of you think about the immigration protest that are going on in L.A.
As for me, being Mexican, being part of a family who imigrated to the united states in the 1930's, and having an affiliation with the UFW (United Farm Workers). I think these protest are within reason.
Don't get me wrong, i am against illegaly crossing the border, but i am also against dumb ideas by racist politicians who do not understand what they are creating. I really want to know what you guys think. Thanks for the replies.

[Mac]

This topic could open a real kettle of fish.....let's keep it civil and it won't get deleted.

With that said, I'm all for immigration - our country was founded on it. However, I'm against illegal immigration. It puts a strain on our resources, and creates a myriad of other problems. Illegal immigrants utilize goods and services (schools, medical care, etc.) that are funded by taxes, yet they generally don't pay taxes because they are employed illegally and paid "under the table". They can't get driver's licenses (as it should be) and are afraid of deportation, so they constitute a disproportionate percentage of hit-and-run drivers. In many cases, a large percentage of the money they earn is sent back to relatives in their country, so it's not being reinvested here....our economy is being used to prop up their economy.

I think the protests are ridiculous and unfounded, and I would think that the LEGAL immigrants would make a stink over the fact that they took the time and effort to do things right, yet they're being treated no differently than those who choose to scoff at the law and cross the borders illegally. There's no incentive to do things legally when you can break the law and get the same benefits. I could draw a comparison to burglars, thieves and bank robbers protesting that they KNOW they could get a job and make money by honest means like everybody else does, but that's just too difficult, so they should be allowed to keep whatever they steal/burgle/rob without fear of reprisal.

In a similar vein, I think that welfare benefits are grossly abused by many LEGAL citizens, and that should be cracked down on just as hard - they're putting a huge drain on our resources also. There should be a simple contact number for citizens and law enforcement to report suspected cases of welfare abuse, and those people should be investigated and their benefits rescinded if investigators discover that abuse exists. That whole bureaucracy is in desperate need of major reform, but is so overlooked by our society that it's pitiful.

[TheForceCHP]

This topic could open a real kettle of fish.....let's keep it civil and it won't get deleted.

With that said, I'm all for immigration - our country was founded on it. However, I'm against illegal immigration. It puts a strain on our resources, and creates a myriad of other problems. Illegal immigrants utilize goods and services (schools, medical care, etc.) that are funded by taxes, yet they generally don't pay taxes because they are employed illegally and paid "under the table". They can't get driver's licenses (as it should be) and are afraid of deportation, so they constitute a disproportionate percentage of hit-and-run drivers. In many cases, a large percentage of the money they earn is sent back to relatives in their country, so it's not being reinvested here....our economy is being used to prop up their economy.

I think the protests are ridiculous and unfounded, and I would think that the LEGAL immigrants would make a stink over the fact that they took the time and effort to do things right, yet they're being treated no differently than those who choose to scoff at the law and cross the borders illegally. There's no incentive to do things legally when you can break the law and get the same benefits. I could draw a comparison to burglars, thieves and bank robbers protesting that they KNOW they could get a job and make money by honest means like everybody else does, but that's just too difficult, so they should be allowed to keep whatever they steal/burgle/rob without fear of reprisal.

In a similar vein, I think that welfare benefits are grossly abused by many LEGAL citizens, and that should be cracked down on just as hard - they're putting a huge drain on our resources also. There should be a simple contact number for citizens and law enforcement to report suspected cases of welfare abuse, and those people should be investigated and their benefits rescinded if investigators discover that abuse exists. That whole bureaucracy is in desperate need of major reform, but is so overlooked by our society that it's pitiful.

I agree with Mac on this

[retchp]

Well said Mac.
My ancestors were Scottish rebels known as Jacobites. To the English they were terrorists of course. They immigrated first to Canada and then to the US back during the 1800s as many Americans did. In fact everyone here except the American Indian has come from some where else originally.
We need immigrants, we do not need ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS.
As for them taking jobs no one else will do, that is just a red herring. If I needed the money I would shovel out sewers to get the money and many other Americans would too. In fact, I have shoveled out a sewer or too in my lifetime and not been paid real well for it, but I needed the money.
There needs to be a stop put to illegal immigration and some sort of process to ID and make citizens out of those already here or get them deported so they can start the process over again legally.
It is very complex and we are cetainly not going to solve the problem here on our little forum. It will take politicians in high places in both countries working together to solve the problem over many years.
I think it may in fact be too large to solve without some sort of amnesty program.

[Your Mentor]

I agree with Mac as well. I'd like to reiterate that illegal immigration is NOT the soul domain of Mexican nationals. We have thousands of illegal immigrants from Europe who arrived with student or short-term work visas but decided to hang around. How do I know? I stopped several every day in Death Valley. How did I find out? I ran them by name and DOB (mostly German, French, and Belgian nationals) in California. At least 1 out of 10 had an outstanding warrant and a US address. An inspection of their passport showed they were here illegally. However, you NEVER see these European folks ralleying for the rights of ILLEGAL immigrants. Why is that? BECAUSE ILLEGAL IS ILLEGAL. If a person, I don't care what nationality, goes through the process of naturalization I welcome them into our country and society with open arms. I'd gladly shake their hand as a fellow American.

Now, just for some perspective on the southern border issue: I know at least three uniformed CHP persons who come from migrant worker families. There are hundreds but I only know three personally. One, a classmate of mine, died in the line of duty and has an elementary school named after him. He was VERY involved in migrant worker rights and unions before joining and after he was sworn in. He was fortunate enough to return to his hometown to continue supporting the rights of migrant workers. He was a great guy as a cadet and the community he served loved him. For personal reasons, and the privacy of those involved, I prefer not to mention the others. Whatever the case, this department is diverse and supports, hell, encourages, diversity. The issue here is ONE demographic taking offense to laws which will affect several other minorities.

[Officer_Grady]

then who will do those jobs that no one wants to do? Farm workers, housekeepers and the new term "day laborers." Yes, my job is to enforce the law, legal, illegal, way above me. Funny though, the Irish who come here on a six month tourist visa who do not return to the home country, do the politicians ever say anything about them? Also, this should be aimed at terrorists, but they are probably in this country already and are waiting for the secret code, and that's not funny.

[Cameron]

I'm with Mac. And Mentor, that was some great perspective.

[Tom]

I'm going to quote a very famous firehouse rule, just for you BCjack, never discuss politics or religion in an open forum.

Tom

[x MAIT]

then who will do those jobs that no one wants to do? Farm workers, housekeepers and the new term "day laborers." Yes, my job is to enforce the law, legal, illegal, way above me. Funny though, the Irish who come here on a six month tourist visa who do not return to the home country, do the politicians ever say anything about them? Also, this should be aimed at terrorists, but they are probably in this country already and are waiting for the secret code, and that's not funny.

My ancestors came from Ireland; legally.

If employers could not hire illegals, and were severely punished when they did, they would be forced to pay enough for the job that someone would do it.

[Mac]

I'm going to quote a very famous firehouse rule, just for you BCjack, never discuss politics or religion in an open forum.

To be completely honest, my first impulse was to immediately nuke the thread. Topics like this can get hot and heavy and turn friends into enemies in a hurry, but I decided to simply post a pre-emptory "word to the wise" and see how it developed. As it turns out, it's been remarkably civil so far, with some great insight and thought-provoking conversation.

[Officer_Grady]

xmait,
If you took my post offensively, sorry. After all, this is the internet, I guess everything on here is real. Now your point about messing with employers to make them pay prevailing wages, I'm all for. Problem is the rich will not get richer if they do that and the rich run this country, not the poor. Should the poor work harder, yes, I see druggies and young people with no respect every day. Is it ever going to happen? Not the way it's going now and it's going to take another LA riots just because it's another reason to cause ruckus.
Grady

[CHP1]

then who will do those jobs that no one wants to do? Farm workers, housekeepers and the new term "day laborers." Yes, my job is to enforce the law, legal, illegal, way above me. Funny though, the Irish who come here on a six month tourist visa who do not return to the home country, do the politicians ever say anything about them? Also, this should be aimed at terrorists, but they are probably in this country already and are waiting for the secret code, and that's not funny.

My ancestors came from Ireland; legally.

If employers could not hire illegals, and were severely punished when they did, they would be forced to pay enough for the job that someone would do it.

X MAIT,
I agree with you to some extent.
The bottom line is that the mjority of our employers do not hire illegals without papers and pay them under the table. They use other peoples social security numbers in-order to work, so technically they do pay taxes. What is minimum wage, about 6.75 an hour (that's like two gallons of gas).
Here is an example: Pedro Sanchez came from Mexico, crossed the border illegaly with the help of his family and a coyote. In order for him to work in the fields he has to use a fake social security number or someone else's security number. The Grape Farmer hires him and decides to pay him 6.75 an hour plus 27 cents for each box of grapes that he makes. He works 8 hours that day and manages to make 60 boxes of grapes. He makes a total of 70.2 dollars that day while the farmer sells his boxes to the japanese for about 36 dollars a box. The Farmer made about 2,160 dollars out of one illegal grape picker that day. The farmer usually has about 160 workers that pick his grapes each day. The thing that sucks about this job is that farmers do not offer any types of benefits and the government does not force these farmers to pay their workers more money. These are life-long jobs and beleive me when i tell you this, these jobs suck (sorry for my language, but i couldn't think of any other word).
Im a US citizen, my father took me to work in the fields when i was 14 years old to teach me that this was not the life for me. Today, i would not do these jobs even if they paid me 20 dollars an hour.

These jobs are done by citizens, residence, and illegals not just illegals. This is not just an illegal problem this is a problem that our whole country faces with employers that are not willing to pay enough. If you are willing to work for 6.75 an hour with no benefits, you are a brave person.

I hope this clears up some of your guys thoughts. These are my thoughts, feel free to disagree.

[Cameron]

Hi CHP1!

What you said makes sense to me, except for the vague implication that "Pedro Sanchez", as you named him, is a victim in this whole affair. Pedro is definitely no victim. I'll talk more about him later. But in the meantime, who is to blame for this whole confusing mess?

The blame for illegal immigrants working at these jobs rests on the illegal immigrants themselves, and the employers who put them to work. And on the Federal government, and state governments as well, for not enforcing existing statutes concerning the legality of employing people who are in this country illegally.

The Center for Immigration Studies, a non-partisan Washington D.C. think tank, released the results of a study conducted in 2005. The study found that about 35% of all United States jobs requiring unskilled labor are held by illegal immigrants. Some people, including these protesters, try to make the claim that no Americans would work at those jobs. I don't buy that. They WOULD work at these jobs, but where is the incentive to work at these jobs?

I am offended that many of those Americans who are in the category of "unskilled labor" would prefer to receive welfare checks than to go out and get a job. This is their fault for being lazy, and the government's fault for making life too darned easy for them. But hey, who can blame them? Their welfare checks pay them the same $$ each month that they might make from working at an "unskilled labor" job. So why should these Americans work at all? No WONDER illegal immigrants are taking all the jobs requring unskilled labor!

This is much more complicated than just saying "keep the illegals out." There needs to be some major policy changes as well.

I am of the belief that the United States immigration AND welfare policies need some major review and adjustment, and hopefully these changes will be made concurrently. I am all for Americans having more jobs!

In order for Americans to have more jobs, 1) U.S. employers must pay more to their employees. And 2) it must be made more difficult to receive an unemployment check from the government. And 3) there must be a stricter policy against the hiring of illegal immigrants. When these three requirements are fulfilled, employers will receive more unskilled American laborers than they know what to do with! And, concurrently, the illegal immigration problem will be much reduced.

And CHP1, I am not Mexican, but I have worked every weekend on a farm for pretty much all my life. I started long before I turned 14. I've done the nastiest jobs, in the rain or cold or broiling Central Valley heat. My family are farmers, but we are definitely not wealthy. Therefore, my dad put my brothers and I to work. We've done, and do, most of our own work and you're right- it's not fun! haha. :smile:

If you work for $6.75 an hour with no benefits, like Pedro Sanchez, you are a brave person. CHP1, I definitely agree with you there. However, you are making more than you might in your native country. You knew all the risks involved before coming here to the United States. You knew the score before you ever climbed over or crawled under the border. You may be brave, but you are definitely no victim.

[CHP1]

CAMERON,
I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU 100% ON EVERTHING YOU STATED. I got the name Pedro Sanchez from the movie "NAPOLEAN DYNAMITE". Pedro Sanchez is clearly not the victim. He knew what the risks were. Some people are willing to do a lot of things for money. This mess was created by everyone not just illegal immigrants. We are just in an era where we don't need anymore immigrants, and i completely understand that. It is too big of an issue to solve in a short period of time. ANOTHER PROBLEM IS THE HISPANIC LABOR CONTRACTORS. They give out social security numbers like crazy. They report social security numbers and collect the money for themselves at the end of the week. If i was the Governer I would get rid of LABOR CONTRACTORS.

Cameron, I have another issue to discuss. A lot of people think that it is an easy process for people from south of the border to legally come to the United States. From what i have been told, people who apply for VISAS to come to the United States need to have a large amount of money in their bank account. At least 5,000 and of course most people don't have that kind of money. And you have to wait years before you get approved. That's probably why people from the mid- east have easy access to the United States. It seems to mee like a lot of them have money. CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG.

CAMERON, WHAT PART OF THE CENTRAL VALLEY ARE YOU FROM?

[Cameron]

CHP1, I'm a Modesto kid. :smile: You?

I honestly don't know anything about the cost of visas, but if you're correct then yeah, that's a lot of money. As for people from the middle east, I'd assume that the same goes for them as for any nationality. And that is:

Legal immigration is an investment. It was for my great-grandfather, and it still is today. Making that investment requires saving some $$ first. There aren't too many dirt-poor legal immigrants, most had to have held some type of decent-paying job prior to their migration.

Oh, and I just watched Napoleon Dynamite (again) this last weekend. Vote for Pedro, man.

[CHP1]

CHP1, I'm a Modesto kid. :smile: You?

I honestly don't know anything about the cost of visas, but if you're correct then yeah, that's a lot of money. As for people from the middle east, I'd assume that the same goes for them as for any nationality. And that is:

Legal immigration is an investment. It was for my great-grandfather, and it still is today. Making that investment requires saving some $$ first. There aren't too many dirt-poor legal immigrants, most had to have held some type of decent-paying job prior to their migration.

Oh, and I just watched Napoleon Dynamite (again) this last weekend. Vote for Pedro, man.

I'm from Delano.
VOTE FOR PEDRO!
I have seen that movie 17 times, it's a classic! All of my friends are nicknamed after some of the characters. You should try watching it in spanish! I just hope they don't decide to ruin it like "DUMB AND DUMBER".:lol:
IT WAS GOOD TALKING TO YOU.

[Chipper]

CHP1 Wrote "X MAIT,
I agree with you to some extent. The bottom line is that the mjority of our employers do not hire illegals without papers and pay them under the table."

How do you know? Do you have statistics to back this up?



MAC- Very well written, I couldn't agree more. I for one am tired of chasing vehicles only to find out they are loaded with umpteen illegals.

I say put the National guard on the borders and stop all entry. :shock:

[Chipper]

Oh and these stupid protesters are also causing my brothers and sisters in the LA area more work than they need. Shutting down freeways and such so they can march around. How about marching across the damn border and blocking some other freeway other than California??? :badgrin:

[makakona]

my few cents:

1. i am first-generation american. my mom only recently became a citizen and it was because she worried about what would happen if my father died, even though she's been here legally for decades.

2. in my past life, i was a restaurant manager. legally, all we could do was take someone's social security card, run their number through a computer system to see if it was a valid number (not that it matched up with that specific person), and hand it back. we couldn't make copies, couldn't question them, nothing. there were a few people who worked for me who were illegal, but there was nothing we could do about it at that point. my gm actually hired someone with a fake social security card that was SO obviously fake that i wanted to take the guy's head off. never mind how crummy the format was, there was gross spelling errors all over the thing. @@

3. my husband bears too strong a resemblance to napoleon dynamite, whom my sister's dog is named after.

[CHP1]

CHP1 Wrote "X MAIT,
I agree with you to some extent. The bottom line is that the mjority of our employers do not hire illegals without papers and pay them under the table."

How do you know? Do you have statistics to back this up?



MAC- Very well written, I couldn't agree more. I for one am tired of chasing vehicles only to find out they are loaded with umpteen illegals.

I say put the National guard on the borders and stop all entry. :shock:

It's easier said then done CHIPPER!
And no i do not have statistics to back up what i said and I am willing to bet that neither does MAC in regards to the "Under the table money". I got this information from experience.
It would be interesting to find out how many illegal immigrants are paid under the table and how many use social security numbers, but i doubt that would ever happen.

I do think that some of the protest by students have gotten out of hand. Most of them don't even know what they are protesting for. I also do not agree with them waving the Mexican flag. What is Mexico going to do (nothing). They left that country to begain with, why the hell are they showing patriotism to the country they left to begain with! They should be waving AMERICAN FLAGS not other flags.

CHIPPER if you need a hug to take all that hate out of you let me know or hopefully MAKAKONA'S beautiful picture of herself will cheer you up.
Your very beautiful by the way MAKAKONA.

[Chipper]

There aint no hate there CHP1, just expressing my opinions, just as you were when you made your comment about President Bush in a previous post.

I don't care WHO comes to this country as long as they do it LEGALLY, period. Unfortunately, alot of people aren't doing it LEGALLY, and the highway patrol is forced to deal with them on a daily basis.

And no, Makakona's picture didn't cheer me up. She's married and so am I.

[gorkha shakti]

During my college years, I have worked at couple of gas stations and liquor stores in Merced County. Oh, the gas stations/liquor stores, what a place to gain some unforgettable life and work experiences.

A lot of our customers were farm workers. As a lot of these workers were regulars at the store and I had opportunity to know a few of them. Majority of these workers were Hispanic with the exception of very few that were of East Indian and Chinese decent. What troubled me the most was how and why they were in the United States illegally?

It is a misnomer to think that there is lack of workforce in the United States in any sector, let it be Farming, IT, Healthcare, Manufacturing, and etc. Why do you think majority of the American work is being shipped out to other countries? Why do you think some of the top American companies are lining up at foreign elite Universities to recruit their top brains? Is there a dearth of top brains in American Universities? Go to one of the local Malls and check out the clothing tags, see where it is made.

Majority of the conglomerates want to cut their costs and maximize their profits. One way to benchmark this practice at home is to have a cheap pool of labor and of course some corrupt decision makers to rally your cause. With hiring the legal workers comes the cost of Workers compensation insurance, paying wages with compliance, offering healthcare benefits, some sort of retirement package, and etc. If you have illegal workers on hand, then you can eliminate a lot of these costs and if you cannot have illegal workers then ship it overseas.

For example take the IT industry. Average salary is about $60 an hour excluding the State Employees. But if you ship your projects overseas, you can get the same job done for about $10 an hour. Is it patriotic for American companies to ship this work overseas? It is foolish to think that there is shortage of qualified IT workers in the United States.

If someone wants to protest, let there be a protest. While protesting if you choose to break the law, then you should be charged for breaking the law and have your day in the court. Waving a flag does not necessarily warrant one?s patriotism. Neither wishful thinking nor self-rapprochement is beneficial for the mind.

[Your Mentor]

There is another thread in the General section regarding this topic which is closely related. One thing I will say, which I eluded to in the other thread, is that the high school kids currently engaged in their right to free speech are speaking out from a wholey unique perspective. I find their position compelling to say the least. Seriously, I am humbled by it. Most of these kids are legal citizens trying to protect the rights of their parents who are not. All legislation and rights issues aside, this is something to respect. I could only hope my kids would do the same for me.

Makakona, look in the old thread regarding my avatar. Don't want to go off thread here.

[retchp]

Sorry for going off the topic but...

MAKAKONA...Has anyone ever told you that you have a really nice microwave?:smile:

[pupdog]

For example take the IT industry. Average salary is about $60 an hour excluding the State Employees. But if you ship your projects overseas, you can get the same job done for about $10 an hour. Is it patriotic for American companies to ship this work overseas? It is foolish to think that there is shortage of qualified IT workers in the United States.


At the same time, we need to be responsible citizens of the entire planet, not just the USA. My boss is from India. Any idea what it was like there, and how much the IT industry has changed it? Now if they could just do away with the caste system, they could REALLY solve their poverty problems!

Another factor: luckily companies like 24/7 (the people in Bangalore you are talking to when you phone a company for help...who typically have better English skills than many in the USA!) are decent companies. But poor nations tend to lack laws to protect workers, many of whom are working their fingers to the bone for insanely long hours, little pay, and subject to physical abuse.

Like anything in life, it's a balancing act.

[pupdog]

And how come nobody comments on how great I look or how nice my bike is?

[Dipmo]

And how come nobody comments on how great I look or how nice my bike is?

There just is no way to answer that one safely...

[Cameron]

Pup, I extend my congratulations to you for your wonderful yellow bike shoes.

[junebughunter]

Mac pretty much said it all.

"I'm against protesting I just don't know how to show it" - Mitch Hedburg

Protesting is fine, but I get irritated when it is usually protesting just to antagonize not to actually stand for what you believe. Why are there large groups (one day there were at least 200-300) of angry people waving mexican flags around yelling at the cars driving by where I work. At the same time there are 2 police carsand 2 officers on bikes following them around.

I'm against this proposal because I feel it's more of a threat than a solution. People will come across the border as long as we have something to offer. So now in addition to it theoretically affecting our economy now our taxes are going towards paying officers to monitor the protestors and even more so our taxes will potentially be going towards imprisoning the offenders, will it solve the problem? I think absolutely not.

What would solve the problem is employers not employing illegal immigrants. So spend the tax money on monitoring employers that would go towards monitoring the angry protestors and expanding our prisons. I know it doesn't work that way though :sad: . Let me say again, the only solution to stopping illegal immigration is to stop giving illegal immigrants a reason to come.



Ok now to what really bothers me...

A few days ago while my sister was sent home from high-school. Why?

There were protestors at the school and fights breaking out around the school. The school thought it would be a good idea to stop class and have everyone get together in the cafeteria to explain what was going on. After a few teachers spoke they allowed students to go up and express their opinions.

My sister said, the Cafeteria was literally split in half...one side were all the mexican students and the other side was every other race...

Does this sound familiar...have childrent not learned ANYTHING about segregation? This is so upsetting to me that humanity would actually take such a step back. Here I was thinking we were ahead of racism, at least in general.

Several fights broke out during the discussion so school was closed early.

This makes me sick to my stomach

[makakona]

Protesting is fine, but I get irritated when it is usually protesting just to antagonize not to actually stand for what you believe. Why are there large groups (one day there were at least 200-300) of angry people waving mexican flags around yelling at the cars driving by where I work. At the same time there are 2 police carsand 2 officers on bikes following them around.

we lived in hawai'i when everything went down in the middle east in 2003. they had constant protesting going on downtown and on the drive down there. they specifically targeted military (army, navy, marine, air force, and coast guard bases all on little o'ahu!) and it was very frustrating. we quit going downtown after rocks and batteries were thrown at our vehicle ONLY because it had military tags on it. i totally understand your frustration.

[Chippysgt]

Here is my thoughts on this subject. I was never mean spirited toward illegal immigrants when I was on the road. I do remember that law enforcement use to help the Border Patrol but in the early 70s that came to a halt when the policy was made that CHP, and later, all law officers in California, had no authority to make citizenship inquiries or to enforce the civil laws of immigration. Then they made laws to punish employers for hiring them and elected officials and wannabes got in to trouble for hiring illegals. Then the Border Patrol did not have the manpower to police employers. What a mess. None of this make illegal immigration right. Here is my view expressed in the newspaper in my town. At least now that I am retired I can express my opinions, a process that was not allowed while I was on the job.

http://www.mercedsunstar.com/opinion/story/12067558p-12822085c.html

[bcjack]

chippysgt:

Right on!!!! I agree 100% with your editorial...