I've heard of blocking lanes before, but...

[alexfarrington]

I'm all for a well coordinated evaluation of every TC scene by us (EMS), fire and law enforcement (usually CHP) for the appropriateness of using fire apparatus to block a lane or two to keep all of us on scene safe, but this might be taking it a bit far:

Incident: 1818 Type: Traffic Collision - Major Injuries Location: SR202 MM 3 ThomasBrothers: 23 2A info as of: 12/30/2008 12:07:48 AM

ADDITIONAL DETAILS
12:05AM 1039 ENTAC - OFCR BROWN
12:04AM 1039 59-S2
12:03AM 1; RDWY NOW REOPENED
11:45PM NOW REMOVING DEBRIS FROM THE RDWY
11:44PM CT ADVS HELO STILL 1126 - ETA 1 HR FOR REOPENING OF RDWY
11:40PM 1039 BEAR VALLEY PD
11:39PM 15 - 20 MIN ETA FOR REOPENING OF RDWY
11:38PM BECKY FROM BEAR VALLEY PD REQ ETA ON REOPENING OF RDWY
10:55PM 59-1; SR202 WILL REMAIN CLOSED FOR 1126 HELICOPTER - MECHANIC ENRT ETA 30-45 MINS - HELO UNABLE TO LAUNCH UNTIL REPAIRED
10:53PM 1039 ENTAC W/ 52
10:49PM 1039 HALLS AMBULANCE
9:51PM 1039 ENTAC
9:47PM PER 2 1021 BVPD AND HAVE THERE UNIT COME BACK TO VEH - 1039 BVPD
9:43PM PER CT 20 MIN ETA
9:23PM S2; CONTACT DOT - THIS IS STATE HWY AND NEED SAND ON THE RDWY
8:30PM TRFC DETOURED AROUND THE TC SCENE
7:49PM 1039 ALL VLY
7:47PM PER BVPD 2 PEOPLE PINNED IN THE VEHS
7:42PM 1039 M&S
7:41PM 1; START 1185 DUE TO 1125
7:40PM 1039 KCSO THEY WILL START A UNIT
7:40PM 1039 KCFD W/UPDATES
7:38PM PER DUPE SUBJ W/HEAD INJURY
7:38PM PER DUPE CALLER 2 VEH TC
7:37PM PER DUPE, 2 MILES TOWARD BEAR VLY FRM PRISON TURNOFF
7:36PM POSS 2 VEH TC
7:36PM POSS 1 VEH CATCHING ON FIRE
7:36PM UNK VEH TC

This is also why I'm a big fan of landing helicopters off the main roadway (and preferably at a real airport) whenever possible, especially at night. A lot safer, and a whole lot less impact on traffic. There's a detour that only adds a few minutes to the drive down this highway, but can you imagine that phone call? "Uh, Sarge, you're not gonna believe this, but... Um... Well, the roadway's gonna be closed awhile. Like, for hours. Better call CalTrans. No, no... the tow got the debris outta the roadway, but, you see, there's a ginormous helicopter broken down on the highway..."

Fortunately for the patient, a second helicopter was in the area and the flight to the trauma center wasn't delayed more than a couple of minutes. Hopefully everything turns out okay for both drivers.

[bcjack]

PLEASE TAKE NOTE...IT WAS NOT A FIRE TRUCK BLOCKING THE LANES!!!! (This time) :badgrin:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LC6oqLhbr0&feature=related

[dw]

PLEASE TAKE NOTE...IT WAS NOT A FIRE TRUCK BLOCKING THE LANES!!!! (This time) :badgrin:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LC6oqLhbr0&feature=relatedNo, but it was an air ambulance, undoubtedly called by the Fire Department in a greater conspiracy! :lol:

[bcjack]

No, but it was an air ambulance, undoubtedly called by the Fire Department in a greater conspiracy! :lol:

We do stick together!!!:biggrin:

[playin in traffic]

dw you are my hero! I don't think anyone could have called it better than you did.

[alexfarrington]

As far as that video goes...

I'm still kinda confused. I've seen it quite a few times now, and I can't figure out why they didn't park behind the police car. The dashcam clearly shows the patrol car already blocking the #4 lane. Maybe there was another engine or a truck blocking the scene from 50 yards behind the squad car, but that isn't clear from what little footage is shown.

It didn't look like blocking two lanes was necessarily appropriate here, as the TC appears to be on the shoulder, with the gurney on the fog line. Traffic looks light, so blocking both the #3 and #4 probably wasn't a huge deal, but assuming an average lane width of 12 feet, blocking only the #4 would probably have been sufficient.

Regardless, it's unfortunate that cooler heads didn't prevail here. I'm glad that the men and women out of the Mojave office will typically give us whatever we need when it comes to blocking lanes. It never ceases to amaze me, though, when I work with a partner who makes demands of our Officers on scene, or, worse, starts telling them how to do their jobs. :rolleyes:

I've found that asking politely and respectfully goes a LONG way when it comes to that kind of thing, but what do I know?

Stay safe out there this weekend.

[Mom]

It didn't look like blocking two lanes was necessarily appropriate here, as the TC appears to be on the shoulder, with the gurney on the fog line. Traffic looks light, so blocking both the #3 and #4 probably wasn't a huge deal, but assuming an average lane width of 12 feet, blocking only the #4 would probably have been sufficient.You posted this a while ago. (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=32f_1223373158) It would be a good reason why the lane/area beside where the firefighters would be working might need to be blocked.

[FDandH]

I once was part of an escort of sorts that included following an 11-26 small plane as it was towed from SB I-5 at McBean Pkwy to Whitman Field in the "valley" at 1530 on a weekday. It's always good to be on 'that' side of a traffic jam.

[alexfarrington]

It would be a good reason why the lane/area beside where the firefighters would be working might need to be blocked.

Yeah, obviously anything can happen, and I'm all for blocking as much as we can. Obviously (or maybe not...) though, we, as allied responders, cannot expect LE to shut down the entire roadway for every wreck. Given a 1 or 2 car 1181 on the shoulder, I think it's unrealistic to expect to have a whole side of the freeway shut down.

Regarding the scene in the video, it seems like if the engine had been able to park where the patrol car ended up, the freeway side of the scene would've been protected. I still think that the proper place for this engine would have been behind the patrol car, though. It seems much more likely that an inattentive driver will drive into the rear of the scene.

Regardless of the blocking measures that we have in place at a given scene, I make it a point to avoid putting myself in a situation where I can't keep an eye out on traffic all the time. The only time I feel comfortable devoting 100% of my attention to the TC is when the road is completely shut down or have a reliable early warning system in place (ie an engineer in the engine or truck that can blow the air horn as a warning to us) with enough notice to make a difference.

And for the Officers out there that don't like blocking lanes, here's a success story out of NJ: http://www.officer.com/web/online/Top-News-Stories/New-Jersey-Troopers-Escape-Injury-at-Crash-Scene/1$44682

[bcjack]

Jury awards $17,500 to fireman arrested at scene of accident

By Robert Patrick (http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=RPatrick@post-dispatch.com)
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
Thursday, Feb. 14 2008

Hazelwood — Federal court jurors awarded $17,500 on Wednesday to a fire captain arrested by a Hazelwood police officer in a dispute over where a firetruck was parked during a 2003 car crash rescue.

Juror Betsy Vennemann said after the verdict, "We wanted to make a statement that this kind of behavior will not be tolerated."

Capt. David Wilson won $7,500 in compensatory damages and $10,000 in punitive damages. Jurors, including a nun, said they went easy on the defendant, Officer Todd Greeves, because he has a family and they weren't sure who would pay the bill.

Wilson testified that the Robertson Fire Protection District truck was parked in a way to protect rescuers working to free a victim from wreckage along Interstate 270 at McDonnell Boulevard.

Greeves ordered that the truck be moved to accommodate passing traffic and arrested Wilson for ignoring him. Wilson was released after 23 minutes and
never charged. He sued, claiming civil rights violations that opened him to anxiety and humiliation.

Greeves told the court the truck was creating a hazard and not adding to safety at the scene.

Jurors interviewed after the verdict said their feeling about Greeves was reinforced during the punitive phase of the trial, when they heard there had been other complaints about him. An internal affairs investigation determined that Greeves used excessive force in a 2002 arrest, court documents show, and was the subject of several other complaints.

Before Wednesday's deliberations, U.S. Magistrate Judge Mary Ann Medler had already ruled that Greeves had no probable cause to arrest Wilson, who she said had state law on his side. She also dismissed the city of Hazelwood as a defendant.

"The whole police and fire communities have been watching this case," said Bevis Schock, one of Wilson 's lawyers. "Everybody wanted to know who controls
the fire scene."

Greeves' lawyer, Peter Dunne, said he was disappointed in the verdict and the discussion of the other complaints against Greeves. Dunne also said it was unfair to suggest that Greeves did not care about the firefighters' safety.

Dunne said that the city's insurance would not pay for the costs and that the issue is "complicated." Schock said he thinks the insurance probably would pay
the compensatory damages, and possibly the punitive. Also at issue is payment of unspecified lawyers' fees.

Spokespersons for the fire district and Hazelwood police could not be reached for comment Wednesday.

[TheForceCHP]

Jurors interviewed after the verdict said their feeling about Greeves was reinforced during the punitive phase of the trial, when they heard there had been other complaints about him. An internal affairs investigation determined that Greeves used excessive force in a 2002 arrest, court documents show, and was the subject of several other complaints.
^^^ so he lost the case because he has a history of being an a**hole? :tape:

"The whole police and fire communities have been watching this case," said Bevis Schock, one of Wilson 's lawyers. "Everybody wanted to know who controls
the fire scene."

That was never in question.

Ugh, the entire incident bugs me.

[bcjack]

Sounds like the jury questioned his ability to make good decisions, not specifically because he was an a**hole.

[Tom]

Wow...another worthless lawsuit filed and awarded......purely my opinion, of course...

[alexfarrington]

Did this really need to go to court? It seems like handling this administratively would've been far more appropriate. At least the cash isn't gonna come out of the city's budget.

And what ever happened to acting like an adult and dealing with issues man to man? Based solely upon the video, it looks like both these guys probably bear equal or near equal responsibility for this fiasco.

And as far as the statement from the fire captain's attorney:

"The whole police and fire communities have been watching this case. Everybody wanted to know who controls the fire scene." California can't be the only state with clear scene control protocols and policies. And wasn't this a collision scene, not a fire scene? :rolleyes:

Like the old saying goes... "Proper prior planning prevents piss-poor performance." -- This should have never been an issue in the first place.

[bcjack]

Did this really need to go to court? It seems like handling this administratively would've been far more appropriate. At least the cash isn't gonna come out of the city's budget.

And what ever happened to acting like an adult and dealing with issues man to man? Based solely upon the video, it looks like both these guys probably bear equal or near equal responsibility for this fiasco.

And as far as the statement from the fire captain's attorney:

California can't be the only state with clear scene control protocols and policies. And wasn't this a collision scene, not a fire scene? :rolleyes:

Like the old saying goes... "Proper prior planning prevents piss-poor performance." -- This should have never been an issue in the first place.

Administratively, I would bet they both thought they were right, and "neither one was gonna back down!"

Egos got in the way of being adults!!!!

You would be surprised at how far ahead California is as it relates to incident management when compared to other states...Some states say "when there is a fire, fire is in charge (anywhere), once the fire is out, it transfers to law enforcement". Other states say "law enforcement is in charge always", others say "fire is in charge whenever there is a fire, medical, haz-mat, or rescue issue"

[bcjack]

Another good reason to block...

http://www.firehouse.com/news/top-headlines/nc-fire-engine-struck-while-blocking-scene

[The Highway Man]

Fire brigade over here park where they want. We normally close the lanes to accommodate them and we work as a team. I've lost count of the amount of times we've put a full closure on both carriageways to allow air ambo to land, collect and take off again. :wink:

[Rivet]

[QUOTE=bcjack;119181]Another good reason to block...

http://www.firehouse.com/news/top-headlines/nc-fire-engine-struck-while-blocking-scene[/QUOTE


Looks to me the big red truck got hit because it was in the middle of the road when the scene was off to the right.....

[cjincognito]

Or the big red truck got hit because of all of those freakin' lights...I mean moths fly into the light, so why wouldn't people with the IQ's of moths? :rolleyes:

[bcjack]

http://www.respondersafety.com/Articles/Horrific_Irony-Police_Officer_Struck_and_Killed_in_the_Line_of_Du ty_Just_Miles_From_Where_Another_Police_Officer_Ci ted_A_Fire_Chief_For_Attempting_To_.aspx

[highwaybs]

I think alot of the conflict between CHP and Fire is mis-communication.

Most local PD's have agreements with their local Fire Dept that the Fire Dept will assume Incident Command.

CHP does not...

So when the local City Fire Department shows up at our scene, sometimes they need to be reminded that CHP is the incident Commander.

But with every incident unless there is a serious safety issue we try to work it out post incident

[bcjack]

I think alot of the conflict between CHP and Fire is mis-communication.

Most local PD's have agreements with their local Fire Dept that the Fire Dept will assume Incident Command.

CHP does not...

So when the local City Fire Department shows up at our scene, sometimes they need to be reminded that CHP is the incident Commander.

But with every incident unless there is a serious safety issue we try to work it out post incident

All that needs to be done is have the folks get together and share a cup of coffee, and a donut (or bagel for the newer generation) and get to know each other. I have been very fortunate to have been able to work with four CHP Lt.'s at our local office and after some discussions, we came together on who's who in the zoo and it all has worked great.

[The Highway Man]

You guys over there need an organisation like mine to assist you. At an incident, police deal with police matters, fire deal with fire matters, and we take charge of all traffic management and leave you to get on with your job without having to worry about the traffic. Here's a video that was uploaded to youtube by a member of the public. We protect the rear of the incident, whilst police, fire and ambulance get on with the job in hand. :wink:

Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oaRQ-ujrcg)

[snowdog]

All that needs to be done is have the folks get together and share a cup of coffee, and a donut (or bagel for the newer generation) and get to know each other. I have been very fortunate to have been able to work with four CHP Lt.'s at our local office and after some discussions, we came together on who's who in the zoo and it all has worked great.
That explains the problems.:doh: How many Lt's have you seen at crash scenes?

[bcjack]

Another crash...

http://www.firehouse.com/news/top-headlines/cars-hit-mo-police-car-fire-truck-scene

[Jeff Rhea]

In the English collision, they did an excellent job! They established a safety zone, on the shoulder, using emergency vehicles for protection, without parking in moving traffic lanes. Good on ya!

[bcjack]

In the English collision, they did an excellent job! They established a safety zone, on the shoulder, using emergency vehicles for protection, without parking in moving traffic lanes. Good on ya!

All well and good since the crash was on the center median, but when the crash is in traffic lanes, we must block to create a safe working zone. I don't advocate taking more lanes than necessary, but I will take what is necessary to protect everyone working the scene. Common sense, good communications (preferably before the incident), and a little bit of cooperation can make most every scene run rather smoothly.

[The Highway Man]

This is where we earn our bread and butter. We concentrate totally on traffic management to leave the emergency services to get on with their job. :wink:

[bcjack]

Another successful "Block"!!!!!

http://www.firehouse.com/news/10710829/driver-hits-calif-fire-engine-protecting-crash-scene

[highwayjustice]

0215 hours... I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that "speeding" wasn't the the primary collision factor... She's lucky to be alive, though she might wish she was dead when the bill arrives to fix that fire truck. Glad nobody on scene was injured.

[highwaybs]

Maybe we should require impact protection on the back of the rigs....two vehicle NON INJURY blocking lanes.......I lost count of how many collisions I have gotten to and the vehicles were never even attempted to be moved, driven, pushed.

It is amazing how many can be driven....they may look bad and make a hell of a noise....but all they need to do is get out of the road

Of course...if fire beats you there they don't feel complete unless they can cut the battery cable

[bcjack]

Maybe we should require impact protection on the back of the rigs....two vehicle NON INJURY blocking lanes.......I lost count of how many collisions I have gotten to and the vehicles were never even attempted to be moved, driven, pushed.

It is amazing how many can be driven....they may look bad and make a hell of a noise....but all they need to do is get out of the road

Of course...if fire beats you there they don't feel complete unless they can cut the battery cable

With all the new computer crap in cars today, we don't normally cut the battery cable until the call is all over. Too many things we need to have control over don't work when the power is cut.

[highwayjustice]

With all the new computer crap in cars today, we don't normally cut the battery cable until the call is all over. Too many things we need to have control over don't work when the power is cut.

Why cut them when the call is OVER? I know of one case where a car that spontaneously burned up a few days after being towed? And why not just use pliers or a 10mm wrench and simply disconnect them or tell the tow guy to do it? Just curious.

[Fire1]

Respond to a 3 car TC in city and try to move one of the cars. Get in and turn the key and what do you know. Battery cut. So instead of just being able to drive pickup to the side of the road with just a bend hood and grill, I made the fire fighters get in a steer while the rest of them hand pushed it.:biggrin: Take that.:lol:

[bcjack]

Why cut them when the call is OVER? I know of one case where a car that spontaneously burned up a few days after being towed? And why not just use pliers or a 10mm wrench and simply disconnect them or tell the tow guy to do it? Just curious.

We (my crews) normally disconnect the battery(ies) with a wrench or pliers, not by cutting. There are those cases where we can't disconnect because of the damage to the vehicle, but usually we can.

Many reasons to disconnect; delayed air bag deployment, short circuit causing a fire are just two.

[bcjack]

Respond to a 3 car TC in city and try to move one of the cars. Get in and turn the key and what do you know. Battery cut. So instead of just being able to drive pickup to the side of the road with just a bend hood and grill, I made the fire fighters get in a steer while the rest of them hand pushed it.:biggrin: Take that.:lol:

I have pulled/pushed many a wrecked car for our local CHP to clear the road for them. That is another reason why we don't cut, and wait until after the patients have been attended to.

If the car needs a push, we will do the heavy work, y'aal just sit and steer..

[Fire1]

Hey BC, not directed at you but just wondering, when was the last time you heard of an air bag going off after a tc while the car is just sitting there 10-20 minutes after the tc? Or a random fire starting? I'm looking for actual cases, not well there was this one time in wyoming with a car full of tweakers coming from band camp...

[SlowZ28]

Hey BC, not directed at you but just wondering, when was the last time you heard of an air bag going off after a tc while the car is just sitting there 10-20 minutes after the tc?

This. If you ever do get one and its a GM vehicle please please please send me a PM, its a huge deal and should never happen ever to any car with an air bag ever.

[bcjack]

Here is the video that started it all....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir14uz55-vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AawsBJ7r-PE&feature=related

[SlowZ28]

I would love to get my hands on that box and see what it was, its not a airbag module. Cutting the battery cable doesn't stop the air bag from deploying, I used to deploy them for disposal with just static electricity, so its VERY easy to set one off. Im certain that car was handed over to the manufacturer or an insurance investigator right? I would love to see the report on that one.

[bcjack]

I would love to get my hands on that box and see what it was, its not a airbag module. Cutting the battery cable doesn't stop the air bag from deploying, I used to deploy them for disposal with just static electricity, so its VERY easy to set one off. Im certain that car was handed over to the manufacturer or an insurance investigator right? I would love to see the report on that one.

This occurred in Dayton Ohio. I don't know much more about it except that he recovered fully and I would not want it to happen to my troops!!!

[Fire1]

I can see why you would be inclined to cut cables when doing a full extrication, but simply running around cutting the cables on vehicles with minor to moderate damage with no victims trapped, no injuries, no leaking fuel, with me standing on the curb taking paper seems like bullshit.

[bcjack]

I can see why you would be inclined to cut cables when doing a full extrication, but simply running around cutting the cables on vehicles with minor to moderate damage with no victims trapped, no injuries, no leaking fuel, with me standing on the curb taking paper seems like bullshit.

I guess we can agree to disagree. I won't tell you how to do T/C reports, and you won't tell me how to secure vehicles during a rescue.

As I have said many times before on this forum, we are all on the same team as far as I am concerned, and we need to work together to meet the needs of our customers.

[SB 405]

LA City also deflates tires.

http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt328/Dean1957/IMG_0997.jpg

[Fire1]

I know BC, nothing towards you. Just thinking. And I was not talking about actual rescues. I was talking about showing up at a scene, everybody out of the vehicles, no injuries, cut some cables, and go 98. Does not really accomplish anything except make it harder if I want to move cars to clear lanes. But like you said, you have your way and we have ours.

[bcjack]

LA City also deflates tires.

http://i624.photobucket.com/albums/tt328/Dean1957/IMG_0997.jpg

Deflating tires is one of the methods taught to immobilize a vehicle. I prefer to use 4 X 4's to block the wheels. I doesn't upset the police as much and works just as well...

[bcjack]

I know BC, nothing towards you. Just thinking. And I was not talking about actual rescues. I was talking about showing up at a scene, everybody out of the vehicles, no injuries, cut some cables, and go 98. Does not really accomplish anything except make it harder if I want to move cars to clear lanes. But like you said, you have your way and we have ours.

Where I am working now, we do it all. We have a small PD and CHP is stretched thin, so we sweep, cover oil etc, push cars out of the road, help the tow driver, and on many occasions, photograph the scene and take measurements. Being a former Reserve Police Officer (Level I for 16 years), I volunteer to do whatever it takes to get the road cleared asap, and if that means taking my troops and having them help do measurements or whatever, we do it.

[Yzeman]

I know BC, nothing towards you. Just thinking. And I was not talking about actual rescues. I was talking about showing up at a scene, everybody out of the vehicles, no injuries, cut some cables, and go 98. Does not really accomplish anything except make it harder if I want to move cars to clear lanes. But like you said, you have your way and we have ours.
Could not agree any more. If it is an active rescue/extradition....do any and all necessary, but an empty car? In a very rural Area I worked in, this became commonplace...as in every time. After talking to those in charge with little or no effect, we began adding the following statement to the 180's: "Battery cable cut by Firefighter _______ upon their arrival to the scene." Amazingly, the practice was reduced significantly after that....

[bcjack]

Could not agree any more. If it is an active rescue/extradition....do any and all necessary, but an empty car? In a very rural Area I worked in, this became commonplace...as in every time. After talking to those in charge with little or no effect, we began adding the following statement to the 180's: "Battery cable cut by Firefighter _______ upon their arrival to the scene." Amazingly, the practice was reduced significantly after that....

Sounds like a good way to CYA if it was actually necessary. As I stated previously, I prefer to have my troops disconnect them with tools rather than cut them, as we may need to reconnect them during the incident or when the tow gets to their yard. Disconnecting them does the same as cutting them, but with cutting, you lose the option of re-connecting if you need to do so.

[bcjack]

From a nationally recognized auto rescue trainer on another forum:


http://www.firehouse.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.png Training Guide for Electrical System Shutdown

12-volt vehicle electrical system shutdown involves a series of decisions, assessments, and actions. The brief outline below can be used as a guide for accomplishing the essential steps for safe, efficient, and effective electrical system shutdown. Assumption is that responders at the scene have determined the need for shutdown.

1) Locate Battery(s);
-engine compartment, trunk, beneath seats, fender, etc

2) Electrical feature operation;
-prompt inside EMS to consider operation of electric door locks, trunk, windows, etc, if appropriate

3) Battery shutdown; disconnect or "double" cut;
-work on ground (-) cables(s) first, then work with positive(+) cables to completely take battery out of the electrical system

-if decision made to cut cables, "double" cut cables to prevent any unwanted electrical ontinuity after task is completed

4) Pull plugs;
-interior cigarette lighter outlet and 2nd row or 3rd row power ports to prevent 'power backfeeding'

5) Confirm system shutdown;
-No dome light, no interior door panel light, car radio silent, headlights off, etc

-if evidence of power remains, locate second battery and repeat procedure

6) Report task completion to Command

Note: Not all vehicle crash situations require such actions. Departments should establish SOGs for power shutdown under various situations. Three options include double cutting cables, disconnecting cables, or leaving all cables intact.

Examples;
Disconnect or "Double" cut cables
-Shutdown for all occupied crash-damaged vehicles with EMS crews inside.
-Shutdown prior to committing any power rescue tool to a damaged vehicle.
-Access is limited to all battery cables
-Time is important; sense of urgency to take away electrical power
-If in doubt, take it out.

Disconnect cables;
-Access to battery is good,
-Minor damage vehicle with ambulatory patient seated inside vehicle.
-Time is not a factor,
-Disconnecting is possible rather than cutting cables

Leave battery intact;
-Unoccupied, crash-damaged vehicle.
-Minor damage vehicle in driveable, roadworthy condition
-Minor damage vehicle with ambulatory patient seated inside vehicle.
-Access to battery is good, time is not a factor, disconnecting is possible rather than cutting cables
-Common sense tells you that there is no realistic reason you are doing what you're doing to this car. You just like cutting cables and want to be destructive! You'd only do that once at one of my rescue scenes. We'd have a talk afterwards.


http://www.firehouse.com/forums/t105643/
Entry #27

[Fire1]

Leave battery intact;
-Unoccupied, crash-damaged vehicle.
-Minor damage vehicle in driveable, roadworthy condition
-Minor damage vehicle with ambulatory patient seated inside vehicle.
-Access to battery is good, time is not a factor, disconnecting is possible rather than cutting cables
-Common sense tells you that there is no realistic reason you are doing what you're doing to this car. You just like cutting cables and want to be destructive! You'd only do that once at one of my rescue scenes. We'd have a talk afterwards.

I just wish more crews would follow their own advise.

[340iv10]

A little off topic, but what do the fire/ems guys do when the "patient" (we like to simply call them drivers or passengers) refuses transport AND refuses to sign your AMA

[bcjack]

A little off topic, but what do the fire/ems guys do when the "patient" (we like to simply call them drivers or passengers) refuses transport AND refuses to sign your AMA

We write on the signature line, "Refused to Sign" then ask a law enforcement officer to sign as a witness.

[TheForceCHP]

We write on the signature line, "Refused to Sign" then ask a law enforcement officer to sign as a witness.

LE to sign? I've always been taught to not sign, so no offense but if you asked me I would also be a "Refused to Sign."

[bcjack]

LE to sign? I've always been taught to not sign, so no offense but if you asked me I would also be a "Refused to Sign."

In our area, the contract ambulance service provider actually handles the AMA paperwork. They can ask a law enforcement officer or firefighter to sign. As long as we witness the refusal, we will sign.