Carpool Lane Violation put point on my record when judge said it wouldnt...

[PITTM]

Hi there.

I got a ticket for driving in the Carpool(HOV) lane by myself in August 2007. I researched things online a bit and saw that this should not put a point on my driving record. I went to court and waited as many were given the option to plead guilty, plead innocent or go to traffic school. The judge for the case asked me if i wanted to plead guilty or innocent and said that traffic school was not an option since my violation was a 0 point violation according to www.courtinfo.ca.gov/invitationstocomment/documents/sp06-20.pdf (http://www.chpforums.com/forum/www.courtinfo.ca.gov/invitationstocomment/documents/sp06-20.pdf)

So, I pled guilty, paid the reduced fine(210 I believe?) and went on my way figuring all was done.

However, my insurance agent called me today and said that I had been convicted of failing to obey a sign and my rates were going up. I asked when this had happened and the date he gave me was the exact date I pled guilty.

So, I am a bit confused(and incredibly angry), first, it is quite clear that I should not have a point on my record, but it seems like I do if my insurance agent is seeing it. Could it just be on my record without a point and the insurance agent sees it anyway? This will make a difference of a thousand dollars a year, which the government forces me to pay because they made a mistake. Can someone confirm that this is actually a mistake? I am going to go down to the courthouse tomorrow to try to fix all this but gah what an absolutely gutting discovery.

rj

[Chippysgt]

Your complaint is with the court or with DMV, not the CHP. We don't determine fines, make deals, take pleas or put points on people's driving records.
That being said, it sounds like you have a beef if that is what the judge said so take it up with the judge and best of luck.
Maybe talking to lawyer might be an idea if this is going to bump your insurance $1000 a year or maybe you should talk to another insurance company.

[Chippysgt]

I also found this with a quick google search and it may help you.

The state-wide schedule calls for a fine of $380, so it will be within a few dollars of that in every county. You won't find this information on your ticket. Citations in California do NOT carry that information.

There are points only for violations relating to the safe operation of a vehicle. It is not unsafe, just unlawful, to drive in the HOV lane, so that is not a point. (On the other hand, it IS unsafe to go in or out of the lane improperly, and that IS a point.)

5 months agoSource(s):

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/dl/vioptct.htm#one... (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/dl/vioptct.htm#onecvc)
http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/reference/do... (http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/reference/documents/2007_jcbail.pdf)
30+ years as a criminal defense attorney

[PITTM]

Oh, certainly my complaint is with the court, I just imagined there would be officers who have been called to testify in this case or knew the facts regarding the points distributed from the violation. As it turns out, you agree with me and I suppose I should go see the people at the DMV. I had always hoped to never go there again :cry:.

Anyway, I actually ended up calling Geico(my current insurer) and asking them what my renewal rate would be and they quoted me a rate lower than what I had been paying "because of your PERFECT driving record". So yeah, while that is great news, I am very confused. Off the the DMV tomorrow I guess!

Anyway, I don't want this to seem like a complaint against you all because the officer who pulled me over was 100% correct and very professional. As has every CHP officer I have interacted with. Thanks!

[snowdog]

Exactly which vehicle code were you cited for? Carpool (22655.5)or failing to obey a regulatory sign (21461a)?

[23112]

Snowdog, you took the question right out of my thoughts! There are guys in my office who will sometimes cite solo in the HOV as 21461, since there a lot of black-and-white regulatory signs peppering the center-divider indicating how many occupants are necessary for the carpool lane. I bet that's what happened...

[PITTM]

Hi there,

Read 23112 and snowdog's post's this morning and kind of freaked out. I went to the Palo Alto courthouse and tried to figure things out. I was informed that I had, in fact, been charged under VC21655.5b(thankfully!). However, he informed me that some insurance companies(farmers, prudential, etc) will convert this to "failure to obey a sign" in their system and charge accordingly. I think I am going to write a letter to the California Insurance Commissioner and ask him to stop fraud like that when we are forced to have insurance by state law.

Thanks so much for your help guys!

[SB 405]

Two different violations for driving in the HOV lane? What's the reasoning behind that?

[Chippysgt]

I believe one is very specific about the HOV lane and one is a catch-all for any violation where someone fails to obey a regulatory sign. It could be the way the DA wants it, maybe local area policy or whatever...

[SB 405]

I understand Chippysgt but if a person is comitting the violation of driving single in the HOV lane in the first place isn't the regulatory sign issue a well,non issue? Let me ask this....Lets say a person doesn't come to a complete stop at an intersection with a posted stop sign. Is there a law on the books that says that person could be cited for either failing to come to a complete stop,or failing to obey a posted sign?

[PITTM]

To be honest, I think this is a pretty sickening state of affairs if officers do that just to put a point on someones record. I mean, we live in a state where we are forced by law to have insurance, and certain officers arbitrarily decide that they are going to cite you for a different law than the one you were actually breaking just to raise your rates. I had never even entertained the idea that some CHP officers might be getting paid off by insurance companies, but this seems like a very real scenario at this point. More 1 point tickets for non moving violations=more money for insurance companies. Very, very wrong. I hope you folks encourage your fellow officers to stop doing this as it is kind of smearing everyone's good name if they continue.

I'm glad this didn't happen to me or else I would be filing a complaint with the CHP and subsequently seeing a lawyer and finding others for a class action suit.

[Fire1]

Stop getting you panties in a wad so soon. I know it makes you mad, but take your time, go to the DMV and the court and get things straightened out. And no, we are not in cahoots with insurance companies to screw you over.

[TheForceCHP]

To be honest, I think this is a pretty sickening state of affairs if officers do that just to put a point on someones record. I mean, we live in a state where we are forced by law to have insurance, and certain officers arbitrarily decide that they are going to cite you for a different law than the one you were actually breaking just to raise your rates. I had never even entertained the idea that some CHP officers might be getting paid off by insurance companies, but this seems like a very real scenario at this point. More 1 point tickets for non moving violations=more money for insurance companies. Very, very wrong. I hope you folks encourage your fellow officers to stop doing this as it is kind of smearing everyone's good name if they continue.

I'm glad this didn't happen to me or else I would be filing a complaint with the CHP and subsequently seeing a lawyer and finding others for a class action suit.

How to put this nicely... Shut your mouth :tape: Getting payed off by insurance companies, wow that is a good one

Let me explain something about citing someone for a different law than the one you were actually breaking they are still breaking that law also, just normally you go with the more specific one and in this case that would be the specific carpool section.

I'm glad this didn't happen to me

I am confused, didn't this happen to you???

Ok, I'll step off of my soap box

[CHiP Hopeful]

Let me explain something about citing someone they are still breaking that law+1

PITTM,
Any which way you look at it, breaking the law is breaking the law. Had you not been in the HOV lane to begin with...nevermind.:rolleyes:

[Chippysgt]

I understand Chippysgt but if a person is comitting the violation of driving single in the HOV lane in the first place isn't the regulatory sign issue a well,non issue? Let me ask this....Lets say a person doesn't come to a complete stop at an intersection with a posted stop sign. Is there a law on the books that says that person could be cited for either failing to come to a complete stop,or failing to obey a posted sign?

This is getting bantered around quite a bit but to try to put it in perspective from my ancient point of view, I would say that if a person runs a stop sign you should write them for the specific section that says you must stop at the limit line. The same for HOV lane, they should be cited for violating that specific law. There is not a law on the books that says the officer can cite them for one or the other. Just like many laws, there are sometimes lessor or included offenses. So it would not be against any law for an officer to write a ticket for failing to obey a sign while driving solo in an HOV lane but, notwithstanding any other facts, if I were the Sgt, I would tell the officer to start writing them for the specific section. I think that is what we still teach in the academy also.

[23112]

To be honest, I think this is a pretty sickening state of affairs if officers do that just to put a point on someones record. I mean, we live in a state where we are forced by law to have insurance, and certain officers arbitrarily decide that they are going to cite you for a different law than the one you were actually breaking just to raise your rates. I had never even entertained the idea that some CHP officers might be getting paid off by insurance companies, but this seems like a very real scenario at this point. More 1 point tickets for non moving violations=more money for insurance companies. Very, very wrong. I hope you folks encourage your fellow officers to stop doing this as it is kind of smearing everyone's good name if they continue.

I'm glad this didn't happen to me or else I would be filing a complaint with the CHP and subsequently seeing a lawyer and finding others for a class action suit.

Where did you get the idea that officers do that "just to put a point on someones record." First off, we don't put any points on people's records. Second, where in the world did you pull the idea that CHP officers are getting paid off by insurance companies? We don't benefit from a single citation we write!

Actually, the officers I know that do this usually do it after talking to the violator--a regulatory sign ticket plus the cost of traffic school is cheaper than a solo-in-the-carpool-lane ticket. Contrary to your conspiracy theories, they do this as a favor to the violator, not to "arbitrarily" put a point on someone's record.

Get your facts straight before coming up with asinine accusations.

[SB 405]

Okay Chippysgt I think I got it. Two year member of this site and I'm still learning about the law.

[TheForceCHP]

I think that is what we still teach in the academy also.

correct

[Mac]

....I had never even entertained the idea that some CHP officers might be getting paid off by insurance companies, but this seems like a very real scenario at this point.
Laughably ridiculous accusation.

I started to write a response to it explaining why such a thing would be impossible, but then decided that an idiotic accusation such as that doesn't even merit a reasoned response. If you believe such a thing could happen, nothing anybody can say will change your mind. Let's talk about the real world, not the fictitious garbage that happens on "cop drama" television shows.

This kind of stupidity doesn't need to proceed any further.