Deputy shooting a Troop

[SB 405]

Guess the only thing we can say for certain is both sides will be in need of a good attorney.

[CaliforniaHighwayPatrol]

I am sure you have all heard this on the news. If you have seen the video, tell me what you think.

I personally heard the sheriff tell the guy to get up, and once he did he shot him for no apparent reason.

If someone can find the video, please post it.


http://ktla.trb.com/news/local/la-me-highspeed1feb01,0,4610482.story?coll=ktla-newslocal-1

[SB 405]

I'll give my opinion...First off it seems whenever one of these videos is shown the first thing I hear (almost always) are numerous commands being given by several different Officers which IMO opinion can confuse a suspect. Having said that it appears in this video someone is clearly heard saying "stand up" My first thought on that command is wouldn't you want a suspect to stay proned out on the ground until he is handcuffed? It also sounds as if the suspect says something like "okay,I'm standing up" and I don't hear anyone telling him to do otherwise. I've got a feeling this guy is going to lawyer up (phone already ringing off the hook) and come out on top.

[SB 405]

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=local&id=3865365

[CaliforniaHighwayPatrol]

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=local&id=3865365

Thanks for the video

[Tom]

My opinion is just this.....none of us were there so we cannot really judge. From what it seems via the clip and what I heard on the news it sounds fishy, however, without being there....no one should rush to judgement. I am not condoning any poor decision/action on either party. The problem with the media is that we, as individuals, develop opinions that may or may not be true. We have the worlds best legal system....let's let it do its job.

Tom

[SB 405]

Another thing I can't understand is why would the Deputy keep telling the suspect to shut the f### up after he's been shot when all I hear is the guy laying on the ground moaning? The above video link is a shorter version of one I watched on another channel this morning. Okay I'm about to say something that may get me flamed,but here goes.....What if the reason the Deputy kept telling the suspect to shut the f### up was due to the fact he (the Deputy) realized he'd made a bad judgement call about firing on the suspect just seconds after the fact and hearing/seeing this person moaning was disturbing to him so he delt with it the only way he felt he could at that time?

[CaliforniaHighwayPatrol]

Another thing I can't understand is why would the Deputy keep telling the suspect to shut the f### up after he's been shot when all I hear is the guy laying on the ground moaning? The above video link is a shorter version of one I watched on another channel this morning. Okay I'm about to say something that may get me flamed,but here goes.....What if the reason the Deputy kept telling the suspect to shut the f### up was due to the fact he (the Deputy) realized he'd made a bad judgement call about firing on the suspect just seconds after the fact and hearing/seeing this person moaning was disturbing to him so he delt with it the only way he felt he could at that time?

I agree, I saw the full video on the news and I was thinking the same thing.

[redhead]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3701021042638173366&q=chino+shot

Don't know if that is longer then the other video that you saw, but that is ther verison I saw.

My 2 cents- ditto Tom.

[CaliforniaHighwayPatrol]

Yea, that is the longer one. It is kind of hard to hear him say shut the F*** Up, because of how they sensored it.

[rich]

Like Tom said we cannot rush to judgement because we were not there. On the other hand, I have a feeling that the man who was shoot will be recieving a huge check when everything is said and done.

[CaliforniaHighwayPatrol]

Like Tom said we cannot rush to judgement because we were not there. On the other hand, I have a feeling that the man who was shoot will be recieving a huge check when everything is said and done.

No doubt about that, even if it was his fault.

[Mac]

My opinion is just this.....none of us were there so we cannot really judge. From what it seems via the clip and what I heard on the news it sounds fishy, however, without being there....no one should rush to judgement.
Ditto - well said, Tom. I'm always reluctant to "Monday Morning Quarterback" until all the facts are in. There's a BIG difference between being there and seeing an amateur video shot in poor lighting conditions, where you can't actually tell who's saying and doing what. I'm not defending or condemning anyone either....it definitely doesn't look good at first glance, but let the investigation take it's course.

[bcjack]

As was said before....We can't really judge who's right and who's wrong from a relatively short video clip. We don't know what the whole story was as we weren't there...There will be an investigation, the facts will come out and then we'll see. According to several news reports, the FBI has been contacted and will eventually be investigating. It is really a sad situation for both the Deputy and the "Suspect":confused: Both of them will most likely suffer permanently from this incident.

Let's all reserve judgement until the facts are all out.

[CaliforniaHighwayPatrol]

They released the driver yesterday, because they said they "couldn't hold him". I think they just let him go because they knew they made a mistake and they are in some deep crap. The dude ran away from the cops, and you let him go the next day....got to love our judicial system.

[johnnyd]

If a suspect is not following the officer's commands and stands up, is deadly force warranted? At what point would the officer consider his life in danger? Should he first use non-lethal means to subdue the subject, i.e. pepper spray, baton, etc?

[Cameron]

johnnnyd- if you look in the "links" section of this website, and go to the "California Post Academy Group" website, and join the group, you can access a wide variety of files that will answer most law enforcement questions.

Use of Force is one of those files, it's pretty interesting.

-Cameron

[SB 405]

And of course today this guys lawyer is going to hold a press conference with the guys family in tow. And what better location to have such a meeeting but in front of the Sheriff station. Here we go.

[SB 405]

After reading this I don't think this will ever go to trial and will be settled out of court.

"In 2001, Webb was one of several San Bernardino County deputies named in a federal civil lawsuit alleging the use of excessive force against an inmate at the West Valley Detention Center. The jury in that case ruled in favor of the deputies and cleared Webb, who had been accused of failing to stop a fellow deputy's misconduct"

[Flying Pig]

Shooting aside.......

Nobody has explained why there was a pursuit to begin with. Wasn't the car a 10851? Not that this justifies being shot, but definitely leads you to believe there is more to how the story started anyway.

[SB 405]

I believe speeding was the reason they tried to pull the vehicle over before the pursuit started. Sorry but I'm not hip to what a 10851 is...stolen?

[SB 405]

The DA's office announced today the Deputy will be charged Wednesday with attempted voluntary manslaughter which will include special allegations of inflection of great bodily injury. I guess after the FBI got involved and talked to the DA it became a whole new ball game. Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like this Deputy is in pretty deep. I respect LE to the end but this video looked bad to me from the very first time I watched it.

[Flying Pig]

VC10851 is a stolen car....thats my only question is why this dude was in a stolen car......not that it warrants being shot, but Id like to know......Im SURE the guy had no idea! I had origionally heard it was a pursuit of a stolen car, he was the passenger, but that was the last I heard. Am I wrong?

[bcjack]

"Attempted Voluntary Manslaughter"??? Is that a crime???

[Your Mentor]

I've been watching this case since day one. This deputy is actually lucky he wasn't charged with attempted murder and the family is infuriated that wasn't the case. You can hear the deputy ordering this guy to stand up and after he shot the guy you can hear a bystander yell, "you told him to to stand up." This deputy is also lucky he's on administrative leave with pay. He should have been canned immediately and cast to the legal wolves. He was so overly jacked up following the pursuit. It makes NO difference what the status of the vehicle was. 10851VC doesn't warrant roadside execution. This is a perfect example of an LEO letting his emotions get the best of him. If he'd kept it together the driver and passernger would have been in custody and this shooting victim would have had to defend himself instead of the other way around. And you never would have heard he was an Iraq veteran. They're playing that up big time. I got news for you; there are several Iraq war vets already doing time for various crimes they committed after returning to the states. Up to and including murder. Anyway, the deputy is deep doodoo and should be. We don't need trigger happy cops on the road. If he's smart he'll take any plea bargain they hand him right now. Any civil case will certainly be settled out of court. If the family has any patience they'll refuse any gratuitous cash settlement early on and sue for four times the amount offered. They'll get at least that much in a civil trial. San Bernardino County should start saving their money.

[SB 405]

I read this quote this morning. It backs up YM comment.

SAN BERNARDINO - Prosecutors listened to the tape over and over again, enhanced it and then listened some more, and each time they said they heard a sheriff's deputy order a man to get up off the ground, then shoot him when he did.

Let me ask this...Let's say we had no video yet the suspect (or victim in this case) was shot in the back which I believe he was in this incident. Would something like that be an issue during the investigation?

[SB 405]

"Attempted Voluntary Manslaughter"??? Is that a crime??? Sounds like a fancy twist on the word murder in the event he's convicted.

[Mac]

Let me ask this...Let's say we had no video yet the suspect (or victim in this case) was shot in the back which I believe he was in this incident. Would something like that be an issue during the investigation?
EV-ERY-THING is an issue in a shooting investigation. I can't speak to other departments' shooting investigations, but the ones done by our department are incredibly in-depth. The finished product usually fills several full-size binders, and has hundreds of man-hours (person-hours???) invested in it. There's no stone left unturned, no matter how trivial.

As to whether or not shooting someone in the back is an "issue" (in the sense of being a bad thing) - that depends on the totality of circumstances surrounding it. If a shooting is justified, it's justified....doesn't matter where you shot the bad guy. Conversely, if it's not justified, it's not justified - no matter where you shot them.

[SB 405]

Maybe a better term Mac would have been "red flag" What I ment by the in the back comment would be in the category of level of fear and threat. But I understand your point just the same. I'm thinking the lawyer for this guy will be all over that in court.

[Mac]

Maybe a better term Mac would have been "red flag"
OK...but the answer still remains the same. :smile:

I'm not trying to be flippant - just saying that it may or may not be a red flag, bad thing, or whatever else you may want to call it. If the guy was running away from you and firing a gun over his shoulder as he ran, shooting him in the back would be perfectly justified. Maybe an assailant attacked an officer, then instinctively turned his back as the officer drew his gun to defend himself. Perhaps he started shooting toward innocent people as he was fleeing, and the officer had to fire at him to defend those people. See what I mean?

The 'Old West' mentality of "never shoot a man in the back" doesn't apply here. Gunfights aren't conducted honorably on the streets nowadays - the bad guy won't call you out, approach from the front and afford you an equal footing with him. They'll snipe, drive-by, ambush, or whatever it takes to afford them the maximum advantage.

[SB 405]

I wonder where this all would have lead if the Deputy killed the victim (again w/o video) and then while on the stand said something to the effect that he fired because the victim was getting to his feet and he feared for his life. I mean let's face it he's not about to say "I told the suspect to get up,but then shot him" I've always felt what YM wrote in his post about the Deputy being jacked up was the truth but to be honest I didn't want to light a fuse with anybody here because I don't do this for a living . I've said it before I'm here to LEARN about how LE works and not TELL anyone how it works having never spent one day of my life in a courtroom. About all I can say for sure in this case is my gut told me this incident was wrong and it's sad for everyone involved.

[SB 405]

Another twist...


SAN BERNARDINO - A sheriff's deputy who was videotaped shooting an unarmed man following a high-speed chase changed his version of events after viewing the footage of the incident, according to a confidential sheriff's report.


San Bernardino Sheriff's Deputy Ivory John Webb Jr. has pleaded not guilty to attempted voluntary manslaughter charges in the Jan. 29 shooting of Air Force policeman Elio Carrion, 21, who was a passenger in the car Webb was pursuing and is recovering from his wounds.
Minutes after the shooting, Webb, 45, told a sheriff's sergeant and a Chino police officer that he opened fire because Carrion had tried to charge at him, according to the nearly 400-page confidential report.

When he finally agreed to be questioned four days later, Webb had seen the videotape that aired repeatedly on television and claimed he used deadly force because he believed Carrion was reaching for a gun, the report says.

During a tearful two-hour interview with sheriff's investigators, Webb said he "saw what appeared to be (Carrion's) hand inside his jacket" and thought the airman was reaching for a gun and was going to kill him.

Webb said he was thinking, "I'm not going to see my baby, I'm not going to see my wife. I'm not going to see my dad." He then shot Carrion three times.

Webb said he had joined a 120 mph pursuit that was already in progress and didn't know why the men were fleeing. He also said he was struggling to keep an eye on both suspects and believed they were planning to flee or attack him.

Carrion's attorney, Luis Carrillo, said he believed Webb changed his initial story after realizing it didn't mesh with what the videotape showed.

"He falls back on a classic false version of events that police have used over and over again to justify bad shootings," Carrillo said. "When they shoot an unarmed person, they claim that they saw them reach for their waistband or reach inside their jacket, causing them to fear for their lives. Thank God for the videotape. It totally destroys his false stories."

Webb's attorney, Michael D. Schwartz, did not return calls from the Los Angeles Times seeking comment.

Deputy District Attorney Lewis Cope, who is prosecuting Webb, declined to comment about the deputy's statements or any other aspect of the case.

[Your Mentor]

This is a bad situation for the deputy; no doubt about it. This job is not for people looking for an adrenaline rush. I've run across so many officers, deputies, sergeants, etc., who react irrationally to so much that it is astounding they ever managed to get a job in LE. Keeping your cool is part of the professionalism we espouse to. Keeping a cool head means NEVER taking anything personally. Many young, testosterone-driven officers, live for pursuits. See a three year old killed during a pursuit and you begin to question whether it's worth it or not. This was clearly a pursuit termination full of testosterone. This guy will likely never work in LE again. At least not in California. Sad enough. But what about the kid who was shot in the back? What really kills me is this deputy, or his deputy, trying to spin it in his favor. If I made a mistake like that, where I SHOT someone multiple times, I'd own up to it immediately, and beg, relentlessly, for forgiveness.

[SB 405]

I bet the guy ends up working as/for a PI somewhere....of course unless he finds himself doing time.

[Your Mentor]

As much as I hate to say this: this guy is going to do prison time. Even on a plea bargain. NO ONE should get away with shooting someone who didn't need shooting. If he's smart he'll take any prison or jail term they offer him and be happy.