Shifts [Archive] - CHPForums

gofly

12-20-2005, 07:13 PM

Back in college (I'm not trying to start a new fight, I mean discussion :rolleyes: ) I was able to assist with a study of this topic, how 8, 10, or 12 hour shifts effect police officers. It was a county study and the local PD's, Sheriff, and HP were surveyed. I can't find the final report anywhere but I will try to relate some of the things they did figure out.

The main thing to remember is the different jobs of each agency and the different ways the police and HP operate. (I'm not going to talk about the sheriff because they were basically the same as the PD.) The best option for the PD was the 3/12 and the best option for the HP was the 4/10. I know it's not what the officers want (based on the survey) and it's not the obvious choice (I want to work less days...) but it seemed to be what was best for the community. The HP is focused on traffic law enforcement and this envolves long stretches of driving in various weather, road and traffic conditions. Even when officers are not driving, a majority of their time was spent on the freway with citizens in an emergency situation or a traffic citation situation. Then they get back into their vehicles and drive some more. Fatigue is a huge issue (maybe not to specific officers, but to the group, as a whole and in accident research). Driving is a major stress on the body, especially the way HP officers operate. Thus the 12 hour shift was too much time on the road for them to function properly, safely and efficiently throughout. And then when overtime incidents occured, which happens often, every extra hour really made the officers less effective than they could have been.

The 4/10 shifts worked the best for HP. When all the time was taken into account of vehicle check out, equipment checks, and briefings, 10 hours worked out best for the officers and the department. They were most productive, had the fewer accidents, and reported fewer sick days taken. One of the main factors the departments were looking at were the days off. While on the 4/10 there were significantly fewer sick days taken than on the 5/8 and the officers were able to give more overtime when needed than the 3/12 officers. The officers also reported feeling better and having higher job satisfaction than the 5/8 officers.

The PD seemed to get by with the 3/12 system better because, mainly, they drive less. They can take more "breaks" meaning they can walk around for a while, talk to citizens, do more community type policing which seemed to break up their day. Police officers were able to interact with the community and see what was going on while not driving at high rates of speed.

I'm all for working less and I'm a big supporter of the 4/10 shift. I think these are good reasons not to do the 3/12 but others will have their own opinions. The 5/8 shifts are the least appealing of aspects of the CHP to me.

be safe...good luck

nobody33

12-20-2005, 07:47 PM

I'm all for working less and I'm a big supporter of the 4/10 shift. I think these are good reasons not to do the 3/12 but others will have their own opinions. The 5/8 shifts are the least appealing of aspects of the CHP to me.

be safe...good luck

I love working 4 10's now. I wouldn't mind 12's either. I was told 4/10's would never work at the patrol because there are not enough vehicles for over lapping shifts... Working 8 hour shifts and no real set days off is probally the biggest drawback the CHP has to me as a prospective cadet.

Tom

12-20-2005, 07:53 PM

retchp

12-20-2005, 08:28 PM

Factor a couple of court days on your days off into what gofly wrote and you have a real potential for fatigue.

Mac

12-21-2005, 12:11 AM

I truly believe that within the next five years the CHP will go to the alternate work week. I base this on a couple of things...#1-Demand-Officers WANT this and the pressure to the Association will move this matter...#2-Contract status-Our contract expires SOON which means negotiations and finally #3-Fiscal Matters of State-bottom line state is hurting for money not much else for negotiations. Just my thoughts......

I agree, Tom. I don't have any insider info to support it, but all the reasons you listed above make perfect sense. Several divisions have experimented with the 9/80 in Areas, and some of the inspection facilities have run 3/12. Personally I'd prefer the 3/12, but 4/10 isn't bad either.

x MAIT

12-21-2005, 04:27 PM

You can't work 12 hour shifts in a busy area and be alert and safe. I don't care how many days off you get. Where do I deposit my 2 cents?

4CHP

12-21-2005, 06:38 PM

Here are a couple of follow-up questions. Are days off consecutive in a work week, or can they be split? Also, can officer trade shifts?

Happy Holidays!
:cool:

Your Mentor

12-21-2005, 06:47 PM

Trading days off and shifts is generally not allowed once the schedule has been made up and approved. It rarely happens. Days off work out differently every month. For example, I'm on the last day of four days off. I worked six days straight last week and will work seven days straight starting tomorrow. It won't make sense until you're in the system. For the most part, you will have to sign up for shifts either by seniority or by rotation; depending on the office. Once you sign up for the upcoming month, you also pick days off following the same method. In some areas you even sign up for beats based on seniority. LE schedules are not linear though that would change if we were on an alternate work week schedule.

Mac

12-21-2005, 07:52 PM

Days off are rarely split unless you sign up for them that way. Shift swaps are pretty much unheard of in most areas.

FuelInjection09

12-21-2005, 11:59 PM

What about if an officer is taking outside classes? Is it possible to continue the same shift schedule?

Your Mentor

12-22-2005, 08:02 AM

FI09,
It depends on the office and your seniority. If you're in a seniority office, you'll probably be on graveyards for a while. That's actually a great shift for continuing ed. It's my favorite shift all the way around. If you're in a sign up based office your name cycles through a rotation list. When you're at the top you get first pick. There's no consistency with this method unless the squad meshes well. For example, when I worked in Bishop I worked graves with the same partner for years. There was a married couple who also worked it constantly. No one else wanted to work graves and there are two cars assigned for the shift. So we were guaranteed to get the shift no matter where we were on the rotation. The same worked out for the other shifts. Everyone had their favorite shift and there were no conflicts. That isn't always the case though. In this RP I'm always on mornings. The other two guys have their favorites so I never have to change. There's no such thing as graves for an RP.

12-22-2005, 09:38 PM

What about if an officer is taking outside classes? Is it possible to continue the same shift schedule?

Most metropolitan offices are seniority based, and with no seniority, you'll pretty much be working the days no one else wants to. Don't expect much consistency in shift or days off for a few years, depending on where you go.

spiderman01

01-14-2006, 03:38 PM

Sorry I'm late to this thread, but I just stumbled across this forum. Obviously one of the arguments against the 3/12 is fatigue. While I understand that we do a different type of work compared to the PD/SO, I think the issue is one of adjustment. Within the last few years, 12+ hour days are not unusual - many times for days on end. Most of what I've read and seen, indicates that we can do the longer work days with a transition period - meaning that officers have to ensure they get proper rest between shifts.

I've also noticed that most people focus on 8-, 9-, 10-, or 12-hour shifts. In reality, there are 11-hour days, up to and including 13 hour and 20 minutes shifts, with several choices in between. I personally prefer the 11-hour shift (assuming we get rid of the 1/2 lunch - otherwise it would be the 11 and 1/2-hour workday). I could go on and on about how it works, along with the pros and cons, but instead I will direct you to another web page with all the relevant info: www.alternateworkweek.com. While I don't profess to be an expert on the subject, nor do I have all of the answers, I have had the opportunity to study the subject to some degree. If anyone has further questions after checking out the web page, please feel free to post a question or send an email.

Robert

Tom

01-14-2006, 07:58 PM

I am so with you. I have done SEVERAL 12+ hour days in exigent circumstances on this job for many days in a row. I ask this to the higher ups, "What is the difference?"

The answer - ?????

Tom

spiderman01

01-14-2006, 09:46 PM

Tom,
There is no difference, except that with the alternate workweek, officers will have a predictable schedule and will eventually adjust to the new hours - something that we typically don't get with the 12-hour shifts during emergency incidents. I think the real issue is that the Dept. cannot manipulate our schedules for MEPs, etc. with the alternate workweek because schedules are set for several months at a time. That would mean that the Dept. would have to utilize OT to staff additional personnel during special events/periods. It would put the burden on the Dept, instead where it currently is - on the backs of T/Os.

Robert

Welpe

01-15-2006, 03:03 AM

I am so with you. I have done SEVERAL 12+ hour days in exigent circumstances on this job for many days in a row. I ask this to the higher ups, "What is the difference?"

The answer - ?????

Tom

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't going to 12 hour shifts actually save the department money in overtime?

spiderman01

01-15-2006, 08:21 AM

If the shifts are set up properly (four or more shifts) with the shifts overlapping by at least two hours, then there would always be overlap officers available to take calls, helping to avoid those last minute, end-of-shift calls. Ultimately, however, I don't know how it will affect court overtime.

Robert

Lucky Seven

01-15-2006, 09:58 PM

Currently our area staffing is so low that the officers are rotating shifts almost every month. In order to give people the days off they want, others have to work longer then five days (as many as 10 or 12 sometimes).

Hey Mentor, you said no graveyard shifts, but aren't you on call?

Phil the Frenchy

01-16-2006, 10:41 AM

In France, Police Nationale officers work 3/8 and get 2 days off.
During the december riots, they worked 7/10 to 12 hours a day.
Of course, annual holidays are 25 days a year.

Just my 2 cents.

Your Mentor

01-16-2006, 12:30 PM

spiderman01

01-16-2006, 07:01 PM

I think that an alternate workweek would work on an RP with three officers. Basically one officer would work Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, and every other Wednesday from mid morning to about nine or ten at night. The second officer would work the second half of the week, with the third officer working as a cover officer three or four days per week, and filling in during vacation. It may seem strange at first, but really it's just a different way of doing the same job. What do you think?

Robert

Lucky Seven

01-16-2006, 07:20 PM

Lucky 7,
You're correct. I share the on-call with two other officers. Unfortunately, an alternate work schedule will never work for an RP. We just don't have the manpower and never will. Vacation time would leave the post uncovered for several days a week. With three people we cover morning and afternoons with an overlap shift in between. The problem with the on-call is that we don't get on-call pay per the MOU. So technically they can't discipline us if we miss a call out (if they don't pay us they can't restrict our off-duty time per FLSA). And the call outs are getting rarer. We sometimes work 16 to 18 hour shifts during snow storms.

They can't discipline you but they can move you out of the RP if you make a habit of missing calls. The RP I'm in has only two officers. We split the on-call so that the entire RP is covered 24/7 by two people. When my partner is on days off I work a regular shift and then I'm on-call until my next shift.

I'm on call for a little less then 2500 hours a year. That is alot of time that I am under house arrest waiting for a call but don't get compensated. :rolleyes:

Some type of compensation (like one hour of o/t for every four hours of on-call) should be implemented. But as long as morons like me will work an RP with the on-call status then the issue won't be addressed.

When one of us is on vacation then the area has to cover two days a week.

Your Mentor

01-17-2006, 06:55 AM

Lucky,
I feel your pain man. I worked solo in Death Valley for four of the years I was out there. I was on call 20 nights a month. It was a real drag. You're right; they can always threaten to move you back to the area but I think I'd actually file a law suit at that point. The association is quite helpful about that sort of thing. All it would take is a class action law suit to mandate on-call pay for RP officers. It's not like the department would take it in the shorts: there are only 125 or so RP positions throughout the state. A law suit could ultimately cause the department to pay an enormous amount of back pay to current and past RP officers. The problem is our negotiation team doesn't put a whole lot of emphasis on a hand full of RP officers. I was told it's one of the first things to get tossed during bargaining. The worst part is we're specifically exempt from the pay per the MOU. Great going Association. It's so obviously unjust I can't believe either side would have allowed it to go into the MOU.

Spiderman,
I see your reasoning but it never quite works out that neatly in an RP. Sick leave, days off, and vacation don't always jibe with a regular work week, let alone an alternate work week. Also, and I think this is the most important thing, RP work is all about community service. All of the RPs are small monday-through-friday communities. There's no such thing as commute traffic, traffic breaks, or metered ramps. It's important to meld into the community and that's much easier if you're out there when the community is out and about. We don't have graveyard shifts so we'd be limited to 6 to 6 or 10 to 10 (or something in between those). Finally, RP work often times goes beyond twelve hours. I can't imagine working a twelve hour shift and then being on call for twelve hours. Imagine working a full shift and getting called out during your sleep time, then having your call out run into your next twelve hour shift. That would be brutal.

Your Mentor

01-17-2006, 07:06 AM

I forgot to add; resident posts are the best kept secret on the department. This is my third and I can't imagine ever working anywhere else. The mileage, gas, and time I save not having to commute in my POV is compensation enough for me. The slow pace is daunting sometimes but I'm okay with that. In DV I worked every crash with rangers who were my neighbors and close friends. Having an assigned vehicle fresh out of Motor T until it's run out is a sweet perk as well. And on and on.

CRW

01-17-2006, 07:25 AM

Mentor,
Where did you live in the DVRP? I have my 220 in for Inyokern ( 1 with 0 out) and Lone Pine (1 with 0 out) (my fingers are crossed) but I'm not holding my breath. I've looked but the only thing I have found just states you have to meet resident requirements. I'm guessing the area SOP will state where you have to live. I'm currently in LA and I am ready to go, believe it or not.

Your Mentor

01-17-2006, 07:32 AM

I lived in the state-owned home in Cow Creek: in DV proper. I don't know about Mojave's SOP but I imagine you'll be limited to Ridgecrest or Inyokern. When I worked the Lone Pine RP you had to live in Lone Pine. However, until recently, one of the Lone Pine officers was allowed to live in Ridgecrest. Several Lone Pine sergeants were allowed to live in Bishop and the current one lives in Big Pine.

retchp

01-17-2006, 10:00 AM

There was an article in yesteday's SAC BEE saying they are closing the CHP South Sac resident post. I always wanted that job, but it never came up when I was able to take it. Two man post currently manned by the Lawton brothers, whose dad I worked with. It covers from the Antioch Bridge in the Sac/San Juoquin Delta North to south of Freeport and west to the Solano line and east to I-5 near the South Sacto/San Juoquin line.
The article said that due to growth the area no longer should be served by a resident post and that if the officers choose to work there they will have to pick up their cars and return them to a substation in Galt at beginning and end of shift. Both are thinking of just leaving since they don't want to commute the approximate twenty or so miles to and from Galt just to pick up a car they now have at home.
The delta communities are up in arms about it since they have always had a resident post and love the CHP and those officers. Additionally, it takes a long time to learn the roads down there and the locations. Plus there is hellacious fog in the winter, which would make your commute to and from Galt about forty minutes to an hour in inclement weather.
Having filled in down there on relief, I know that until you get used to driving on those levee roads it is not only terrifying, but an accident waiting to happen.
My biggest fear was going off a levee into the Sacto. river when it was running high and strong.
I personally think the officers and the community are right and the department is wrong, but decisions are made by people, as usual, who have never driven from Walnut Grove to Galt in fog with ten feet of visibility. Or ran code three in it from briefing in S. Sac or the Galt Sub to a car in the river or a head on on highway 160.
I wonder if this is just an isolated thing or a push to do away with some resident posts???

Your Mentor

01-17-2006, 10:15 AM

Another idiotic decision by management that can't see the big or small picture. I'm not surprised but I'm also frustrated with the politics that play into the hypocracy. Is the community outreach program only for minorities? Apparently small outlying communities don't qualify for time honored tradition or community outreach. Sometimes I can't believe executive management. Talk about living behind the safety of wood-panelled office. Did you know that HQ has a plasma TV in their conference room? Again, they talk a big talk but play a puney game. Those brothers have been a part of that community for so long. The state is literally disrupting a community it should be serving. Are they going to create a substation in Galt? That would be way more costly. Why do most of the decisions for the field from executive management make no sense?

retchp

01-17-2006, 01:47 PM

Delta folks lament loss of familiar CHP patrols
Residents say they'll have to get used to officers who don't know them and their region's quirky roads - and some fear response times will be slower.
By Brian Joseph -- Bee Staff Writer
Published 2:15 am PST Sunday, January 15, 2006
Story appeared in Metro section, Page B1
Get weekday updates of Sacramento Bee headlines and breaking news. Sign up here.

Change isn't easy in a place where a curve in the road is named for a restaurant that closed there 20 years ago.
So it's no surprise that residents of the Sacramento-San Joaquin River Delta were upset recently when they learned the California Highway Patrol was planning to eliminate the region's resident officer program.

For 60 years, the CHP officers who patrolled the Delta have also lived there. After their shifts, they'd return home with their squad cars and remain on call.

For the community, having officers nearby meant a quicker response in an emergency. Their familiarity with the terrain also meant precious minutes wouldn't be wasted while officers searched for addresses.

"We wish everything could stay the same. It's working," said Joey Sanchez, chief of the volunteer Walnut Grove Fire Department.

Sanchez often works with the Delta's two resident officers, brothers Dan and Matt Lawton. Matt has worked in the Delta for eight years, Dan for 13 years.

"These boys know (the Delta)," Sanchez said.

Matt Lawton agrees. "I think I do a better job because I live out here," he said.

CHP administrators say the Delta, with its rising number of fatal car crashes, has outgrown the resident program. Starting March 1, they are eliminating the two resident officer posts and making the Delta a regular beat.

This means the Delta region will be patrolled 24 hours a day by a pool of 10 officers, instead of, at most, 16 hours a day by two specific officers. There will be one squad car per shift.

Under the plan, the Lawton brothers will keep their jobs and could continue to patrol the Delta, but they won't be able to drive their squad cars home and won't be on call after their shifts.

The change also means strangers could be patrolling the Delta. That has residents worried.

"When you have resident officers, they fully understand the Delta and where to respond and where the problem is at," said John Baranek, a resident of Courtland. "The biggest problem is you have islands. And on the islands, you don't have normal road layouts. Nothing is square. You have rivers and sloughs (to deal with)."

Then there's the issue of community landmarks. Residents say addresses and street names are virtually worthless when giving directions in the Delta. So, instead, they use landmarks that don't show up on any map - "the Old Fruit Stand," "Glass Beach," "The Stink Plant." A bend just north of the Antioch Bridge is called the "Bean Pot" for a restaurant that closed there two decades ago.

Residents say the only way officers can pick up the local terrain is to live there. Craig Bettencourt of Rio Vista, whose wife Debbie helped collect 2,000 signatures protesting the CHP change, said the Delta needs an officer who is a local, "someone that's going to know the levee roads."

Dan and Matt Lawton also would like to see the resident program stay.

"If there's a way to keep the resident program, it's probably good for the Delta and for the Highway Patrol," Dan said.

River Delta Fire Chief Rick Carter said he thinks losing the resident officers will cause "mayhem." He said he's convinced CHP response times will go up with officers unfamiliar with the Delta.

"Nobody is able to fill their shoes," Carter said of the resident officers.

But CHP Assistant Chief John Rolin, who heads the division that covers Sacramento County, said the resident program has outlived its usefulness in the Delta. He said the program is designed for sparsely populated areas with little activity, places like Truckee or Death Valley.

The Delta, however, isn't a sleepy community anymore, thanks to Bay Area commuters.

The increase in traffic, combined with the Delta's winding roads, has fueled an increase in fatal highway accidents, Rolin said. In 1999, seven of the 50 fatal accidents in south Sacramento County were in the Delta - 14 percent. In 2005, it was 26 percent.

Capt. Andy Jones, who oversees the south Sacramento office, said the change will allow the CHP to provide more coverage in the Delta. As it is now, when one of the Lawton brothers goes on vacation, the Delta is covered by a patrolling officer only one shift a day.

And at nights, the brothers are on call, not out patrolling, Jones said.

"I really think the community is going to see a marked improvement in service," he said.

Jones said the Lawton brothers will be allowed to continue patrolling the Delta region, if they'd like. But they'll have to pick up and drop off their squad cars at a substation in Galt.

Both Lawton brothers say they might not want to continue patrolling the Delta if it means a commute to Galt. In fact, the brothers said they are thinking about moving from the Delta.

"I don't like the idea of commuting to work. I've enjoyed having a take-home car," Matt Lawton said.

gofly

01-19-2006, 01:42 PM

Let me first say: I agree that it is a bad decision to remove these officers from their resident post. The management decision is not taking into account the positive impact the officers (and brothers) have on the community and public safety.

But, i do have a few questions and think the officers need to come up with better reasons to stay as RP's than " I like having a take home car and i don't like commuting to work."

Those statements make them sound like spoiled kids, meaning if I can't play the game the way I want to play, then I'm just going to leave. Many officers in the department have long commutes through various weather and traffic conditions. All other officers have to commute in their own vehicles.

The brothers knowledge of the area is EXTREMELY VALUABLE and essential to public safety. But how did they get it? Were they born and raised in the area? Did someone teach them? Did they figure it out on their own?

What happens when either or both of these officers decide to retire, or quit, or get injured, or promote, or take a specialized assignment? Who will fill the post then? (someone will have to be trained, right?)

I thought the whole point of the the CHP (and law enforcement in general) was that everyone is trained to enforce the law in the same manner. Certainly there must be others that can learn how to navigate in the sac delta area. These men are part of the CHP which is a team effort, i thought. The brothers have specialized skills that they should be WILLING to share with other officers who may work in the area.

I (and the rest of the motorists in California) appreciate the difficult job and the hard hours resident post officers like the Lawsons and Your Mentor put in. Yes there are problems but YM said he thinks it is the best place to be in the CHP and couldn't imagine working anywhere else. But what would happen if they closed the RP's? What would you do? Quit or stay and perform your job as a valuable member of the CHP? Be mad at the state because they took away some of your perks or remember that you have a job you love and are responsible for the safety of the motorists no matter where you are posted?

I'll say it again for people who will only read my questions about the RP's. I think it is a BAD decision to take these officers from the sac delta area. But I feel there needs to be more than just two officers in the whole state who can safely work in an area.

good luck...be safe

FREEWAY FUZZ

01-20-2006, 06:26 PM

MAC, MY DAYS OFF GET SPLIT UP EVERY SINGLE MONTH. THAT'S NOT EVEN INCLUDING COURT ON SOME OF THE RDO'S. I NEVER KNOW WHAT MY DAYS OFF ARE GOING TO BE, I JUST KNOW IT WON'T BE ON THE WEEKEND.

Tom

01-20-2006, 07:00 PM

Gofly - Where do I begin with your post. First, I appreciate your disclaimer at the beginning and the end. Do you know what the structure of the RP's are? Do you know where they are located, the populations, the demographics? I don't even know all of those. I do know that it is not likely that all RP's will shut down. A normal office just cannot respond to an out of the way area like an RP can. The Delta RP (Walnut Grove) may be the only one even close to an area office, so it may be feasible.

I didn't read the article to say that the Lawton brothers don't like to commute (and that is their major gripe of being forced out)but even if it does...so what.....I don't like to commute. The fact is they can respond faster with a car at their home to a remote area. And yes, I do believe that they grew up in the area.

And again nowhere do I see that others can't perform the same job elsewhere, how did that point even arise? Could someone else do it?....Yes. Do they want to?.....Maybe. No, I have never worked in a RP. I think its possible to love your job and love your "perks" at the same time. These so called perks are for the benefit of the motoring public - not for the Officers themselves.

Finally, if you think that every job on this Department is the same and we can all do the same thing......I leave you with your screenname....I can't fly a helicopter or a plane...yet we have positions for that. What happens when those Officers decide to quit, retire, get injured or promote? Probably the same thing that happens at a Resident Post.

Tom

gofly

01-20-2006, 10:24 PM

Tom,

With all due respect, I don't think you understood the points I was trying to make. I believe there are parts of California, the Sacramento Delta as a case in point, where a resident officer is beneficial and an asset to the community. But from the article I read (which is directly above the comment I posted, you can read that one as well) the officers in question, the Lawsons, didn't really support their case as to why they are needed in the area. I understand it is just a newspaper article and reporters do what they want, but the officers could have demonstrated their case and their reasons more clearly.

I was mainly concerned as to why THESE SPECIFIC officers were so angry about the closing of the RP. The community should be worried that they don't have a dedicated CHP officer there, not so much these specific officers. These men do have knowledge of the area and I do not know if they grew up there, own homes there or simply live in the state owned residence (as is an option at most RP's). They had to learn the area somehow and someday they will not be CHP officers but the area will still be there. I think they should be willing to teach others how to be of best service to the community. The job and duty of a CHP officer is to protect and assist the people of California. Where ever they live and with the best possible actions. Where ever an officer is stationed and with any person they come into contact with. I'm a city guy and if I get told to work the desert, I will do it with all the skills I have learned and I will perform in order to maintain the standards of the CHP. If a guy from the mountains gets stationed in East LA, I'm sure he will work hard and be proud of his department and his state.

These officers make it seem like they are the ONLY people who can work that certain area. Yes, they do have much more knowledge than most other officers, but the point I was trying to make was that someday they may not be around. Actually, someday they WILL NOT be around. Someone will have to take their place. I am all for community service and community policing. Other officers will be able to learn the area and interact with the citizens.

I never made any comments about closing any or all RP's. I don't know the structure of the CHP rp's and never said I did.

As for the specific skills needed to work at a rp, what are they? Area knowledge? Ability to work by yourself or with allied agencies? Interaction with local citizens? Tell me what else you need because I'd like to know. All of those traits are the SAME as any other CHP officer, right?

As to your comment about different jobs in the department: if I can fly a plane or helicopter, am a paramedic, can speak a foreign language, if I am an instructor, or a DRE then I am an asset to the department. And the department will use me as they see fit because I can help the state. My perks are only extra salary or assigned car or state owned house or whatever. Whatever it is, that is because I (in that specific position) am a valuable assest and should be rewarded as such. For going beyond the normal job. These guys got the perks of take home cars and no commutes because they were doing something extra. If the rp is closed, they are not doing something extra and thus they lose their perks. That is why they get the perks in the first place. If they don't have to be rp officers and be on call several thousand hours a year, they are not needed to go beyond the normal job description of a CHP officer.

The last line of the article is a quote from Matt Lawton.

Again, no disrespect intended. But please read what my concerns are with an open mind and respond accordingly with facts. When I teach I tell my students to be able to back up everything they say or do with a fact and or a reason. When I am a student I try to learn the same way. There should be reasons we do things the way we do. And in this case it shoud be for the benefit of the state.

all this is open for anyone to comment. If I am missing something let me know.

good luck...be safe

Tom

01-20-2006, 10:36 PM

You are missing the point...because you are inferring from a newspaper article and you speak on what you don't know. It is wise to speak only after complete investigation.

Clearly we can agree to disagree...as I recall you were against veterans preference points as well.

Tom

Mac

01-21-2006, 09:16 AM

MAC, MY DAYS OFF GET SPLIT UP EVERY SINGLE MONTH. THAT'S NOT EVEN INCLUDING COURT ON SOME OF THE RDO'S. I NEVER KNOW WHAT MY DAYS OFF ARE GOING TO BE, I JUST KNOW IT WON'T BE ON THE WEEKEND.
IMO, split days off are a malfunction on the part of the scheduling sergeant unless you sign up for them that way.

gofly

01-21-2006, 10:00 AM

Sorry to other readers if Tom and I are gettting off on a tangent here.

Tom,

What is your point exactly? What point am I missing? All I wanted to see was valid reasons these two officers are the only members of the CHP who can patrol the area and why they deserve to have the RP. This should be easy to explain, especially to someone who is "speaking on something I don't know." You have not provided any facts or explanations and if I can't even get any good reasons as to why the rp is needed, why would the CHP management need to keep it? Like I said before, I'm in favor of the rp's (what I know about them) but I like to have facts to back up decisions. And the decisions makers for the department probably also like to have facts.

And since you brought up the veterans preference points again, not one person was able to give real reasons as to why they are given or needed to be given to applicants for the CHP.

I'll go with the "agree to disagree" thing after I hear the (valid) reasons on these topics. I'm also trying not to make this personal, it's just a discussion of a few topics. That is what a board like this is perfect for.

good luck...be safe

retchp

01-21-2006, 11:46 AM

gofly wrote:
What point am I missing? All I wanted to see was valid reasons these two officers are the only members of the CHP who can patrol the area and why they deserve to have the RP. This should be easy to explain, especially to someone who is "speaking on something I don't know." You have not provided any facts or explanations and if I can't even get any good reasons as to why the rp is needed, why would the CHP management need to keep it?

Let me try...They are not the only officers who can patrol the area. They only deserve to be there because they are there now. If they leave then someone else will replace them, assuming the RP is not closed.

As to why this specific RP is needed, approximately 2000 people who live in the area think they need it and have signed petitions to that effect. The area is isolated by terrain (and fog during winter). It is a very complex area to learn. If a regular beat officer is assigned to work there out of the area office on a random basis, he/she may not know the area well enough for a long time and will be in danger of having a crash themselves driving around in the fog and atop the leveees at relatively high speeds on calls. I know from experience that it takes a year or two of constant working there to really know how to drive an enforcement vehicle there.
With an RP if a crash or another incident happens an RP officer can respond in a timely manner. If the same thing happens and it happens at shift change or while the assigned officer is booking at the jail for example then response time would be greatly increased. This is a disservice to the public who live in the area and have depended on the RP for many years.
I also know from experience that there is really not much to do socially in the area and that at night traffic dies down so when officers are assigned there they will try during a shift to slip over to I-5 and Highway 99 to write tickets and eat their meals. Some will try to go home for meals. All this means that when the call comes in there is a greater possibility that the officer who is supposed to be near the RP will be "out of position", causing excessive response times.
There will still be pressure for "activity" when officers are assigned there on a random or rotating basis. In an effort to keep up with brother officers on beats in the metro area it is likely that extra chances will be taken on winding levee roads increasing the chances of an accident. There has been historically, no pressure for activity for officers assigned to an RP as it is considered to be a public service position more than an enforcement position.
The local public over time will not be as supportive of CHP as they are now once they begin to receive citations for perceived minor things that the RP officer may have overlooked. An example might be an RP officer will tell John Q. Public to get new tires. A non RP officer will write him a ticket for unsafe tire tread. John Q. will in both cases get new tires, but in the latter case will also pay a fine and have to take a trip to court.
All this being said, gofly, it is essentially a management decision and if made, will be done and whoever is assigned to work down there will do the best they can under the circumstances. The local public will be the only loser. The CHP will save a little overtime and the area will go uncovered a lot of the time.
I hope some one else can weigh in on this since I am out of ammo.

Tom

01-21-2006, 03:01 PM

Retchp is correct on all accounts. He knows what he is talking about, is familiar with transfer policies, etc. His information is not just "gleened" from a newspaper account that he read from 300 miles away and construed in every direction. The inner workings of the Department and Transfer policies, RP assignments, etc. are far beyond the scope of this board and would be near impossible to convey. Technically I don't think I need to provide any other valid reasons because you don't know the Lawton brothers, the area, CHP policy or any thing else about it - EXCEPT - what you read in a newspaper article. So by your method, I think I am going to make a blanket statement about teachers, a subject I know nothing about, based on a newspaper article. But I won't.

And, again, I will give you the real reason for Veteran Preference Points. #1 - it is a function of Federal Law and the Veterans Administration and #2- and most importantly - THEY earned those points sacrificing for their/your country. Period. I will not speak any further on the issue because, frankly, I believe very strongly in it and I'm trying to not make it personal.

I have nothing against you, personally, gofly. I have a problem when people pass judgement based solely on media outlets. Finally, I see your first post merely as a personal atttack against Officers at RP's and that is the reason I initially stood up. I am done with this discussion. Be safe.

Tom

gofly

01-22-2006, 10:41 PM

Thank you, retchp, for providing real and factual reasons of the value of the rp. In your explanation you even stated things that actually happen in addition to what is required by the law. I hope you (all) will be able to see that in each of my posts I show support for keeping this rp. I am merely questioning why it is necessary and wondering how the officers who are there are going to provide facts and examples of why they are needed. That is what I wanted to know, examples of why they need to be there in order for this valuable resource (the rp with the Lawtons working there) should stay. This is what the people determining the outcome of the rp (the CHP and the state of CA) are going to want to hear and I just wanted some feedback from the officers in the field because they can give way better information than any newspaper. You don't need ammo to convince me, just some details. I'm on your side.

Tom, I don't know if you read my posts or just get mad if you see my name somewhere, but if you did read them you'd see I have ALWAYS been in support of the rp's and the officers who work there. I made my comments based on the information a RETIRED CHP OFFICER provided. I didn't construe anything. For the sake of this discussion I don't care about Department and Transfer polices. I just wanted to hear some reasons or examples of how and why this rp is needed and someone had to write an article about it and why the CHP is considering shutting it down. You could explain none of that. I made no judgements about the Lawtons, rp's, or officers anywhere. If I did make any statements about any CHP officers they were positive. Tell me in my first post where I made a "personal attack on against the officers at rp's." My remarks were just trying to get more information about the situation and the quote from the article.

You still haven't provided any reasons as to why veteran preference points are needed other than falling back on the statement "because the feds say we can give them". But we can drop that because I don't think you will. And I do take this part personally: Don't tell me THEY have sacraficed everything for ME and MY country. I have the utmost respect for people serving in the military. I know what the men and women of the armed services are doing. But you have no place in saying I have not done anything to help others and my community. You don't know how many lives I've saved or how many times I've put my life at risk to help others. You don't know how many lives I've touched or the sacrifices and contributions I've made to help others. Please don't be so small minded to think that the military is the ONLY way to contribute.

good luck...be safe

Lucky Seven

01-23-2006, 12:44 AM

GoFly,

I did not take offense to your post, although without reading it carefully it does appear that you are acting as the "Devils Advocate" regarding the article. Your neutral position and interest in clarification becomes more apparent in your subsequent posts.

Ret made a very good summation of the situation and its various ramifications. Allow me to add the following:

A resident post position is a multi-faceted operation. Officers work in remote areas, usually with no back-up, at all hours of the day and night. Knowing the area and people is as important as knowing how to do the job with little or no supervision. There are so many things that a RP officer will face, often alone, compared to a metropolitan area officer, (medical aides, general LE issues, etc.).

Furthermore, a RP officer is acting in a bubble where his/her actions both on-duty and off-duty are scrutinized on a daily basis by the locals. Any RP position is the epitome of the problem oriented policing concept that so many departments have embraced in the last few years.

Additionally, it appears that you look at a resident post position as an assignment with numerous perks, (i.e. a take home car). The only reason that the officer has a take home car is so that he can be called out of his home day or night to respond to calls. The officer is on call quite often (I am on call approximately 2400 + hours every year). I cannot leave home, I have to be available to respond to a call within a given time frame, and I am very limited when on call as to how I can spend my off duty time. I do not get paid for being on call. So all those hours are basically free to the state unless you actually respond to a call.

The loss of your personal freedom is difficult. The reward is primarily for being there to help people, (like tonight when I spent two hours searching for a lost mother who had driven away from home with a concussion (SO was not available), found her, and then provided medical treatment (all RPs are either EMT or paramedic) until the ambulance arrived. She was medi-flighted to a trauma hospital).

A RP assignment, for the officer, is a double edged sword. It is a great PR tool for the department and a cost effective way to cover a rural area with a minimal amount of staffing.

In the case of the delta it would seem reasonable to add one or two more officers to the RP to improve coverage and also train new officers the issues specific to that region. Due to traffic and population increases someday the RP in that area will probably not be a viable solution to the problems the area faces.

Just my two cents.

uoplax13

01-23-2006, 02:26 AM

A little question off of the article quoted above.....the Assistant Chief was quoted as saying RP's are for areas like Death Valley or Truckee.....this has not a whole lot to do with the discussion on this thread, but I had always thought Truckee was a normal area office, same for South Lake Tahoe, Gold Run, and even up north in Quincy. Are some of these RP's or is there a RP in Sierraville or some other small town up this way? It would make sense with the way things are spread out up here...

Tom

01-23-2006, 06:47 AM

In your original post Gofly you said, "But i do have a few questions and think the officers need to come up with better reasons to stay as RP's than " I like having a take home car and i don't like commuting to work." To me that is a personal attack on them. Because, again, you do not know the scenario. You think the Officers need to come up with better reasons? You think they do?

I gave you the reason for VA points - its LAW. I like it when you say that you have the utmost respect for those that serve in the military and then you question their benefits? Glad you're not on Congress to remove dental and health benefits for the vets.

I made no reference to your contributions or lack thereof to others. Again, you are inferring.

I'm going to take my small-minded self to my third funeral in 3 weeks for Officers that served today. I hope you will not pass judgment on me becasue I'm taking my work vehicle.

I will let you have the last say - Be safe and good luck.

Tom

Your Mentor

01-23-2006, 10:19 AM

Gofly,
My turn. I've worked in three RPs. I prefer living and working in rural communities. I CHOSE to transfer into these assignments. Officers who work the city, with the exception of rookies, choose to do so and tolerate the commute. I would only be transfered to a metro area if I CHOSE to put in for it. And the S. Sac. RP is as unique as every RP. There are only about 110 RP officers currently assigned and each post is different. Very few can be shut down because of operating costs. If my post were covered by an area beat officer, he or she would have to go 10-8 from the office and then drive over 100 miles just to get to the beat. And then cut beat coverage short in order to return to the office to end his or her shift. Now have two officers a day do that in order to cover A & B watch as well as two more to cover graveyards. An RP being shut down is VERY rare. This is the first to be closed in over 20 years. Oakhurst was closed as an RP a few years ago only to become a full-fledged Area office; basically having NO impact on the officers who worked there as RP officers. This is a diverse department and a diverse state. If everyone thought RP work was the gig, we'd have people stacked on the transfer books, but that isn't the case. So far, the only time I've had to commute to work on this job was while teaching at the Academy; again, a career offer I took, twice, in spite of losing an assigned vehicle. But that was my choice. Understand, however, that virtually NO RP officer saught the assignment just to get out of commuting to work. Those guys in the article are understandably upset and I'm sure were only partially quoted. They grew up there, the community knows them as THEIR officers. CHP officers generally don't move around that much and after a few years, this is a job, NOT a lifestyle. This post closure is going to impact them immensely because they are human beings. They chose to work a rural beat; not the city streets of S. Sac. Now they have a difficult choice to make just because of a management decision. They either have to commute and work beats they'd probably rather not work just so they can remain in a community I'm certain they're strongly connected to, or they have to transfer out of S. Sac. If they seek a transfer it will come entirely out of their pockets. Now is that fare? Most CHP officers settle into stable home lives with families, home ownership, kids in school, etc. To think they need to come up with better reasons for not wanting to leave is ludicrous. Look at them as people, not just assets. They didn't put in for S. Sac. They put in for that RP and established lives around that. They have every right to be upset. The 'perks' you describe are fleeting elements in a very job dedicated assignment. We don't get any compensation for being on call; which is actually illegal. These guys may have been made out to look like they're whining by the media, but the disruption to their personal lives is very real. Not to mention, RP officers are as dedicated as they get. We have people knock on our doors to answer stupid vehicle code questions while we're off duty all the time. I've had people hit me up to sign off a ticket just because they saw my patrol car parked out in front. Is that a perk?

Lucky and Retchp probably broke it all down better than anyone. The communities we serve are so foreign to city people you can't imagine. The poverty is unreal, and the domestic violence is just as prevelant. There are people where I work who come from five generations of farmers. There are kids out here who have never even seen the ocean. They learn about the city watching television. Being an RP officer means becoming a part of the community you police. In my off time I help my closer farm friends move irrigation lines, cut, bail, and stack alfalfa, winterize their fields, and attend countless BBQ's afterwards. When I'm working the road and have to clear a stray calf out of the road, I know which farmer to call or I can get them back behind the fence myself. I work crashes with volunteer fireman, not metropolitan professionals. And I know them all by first name. Instead of having coffee with beat partners on my breaks, something we all miss, I join a counter-full of farmers at the local diner. That's what it means to join a community. You simply can't experience that in the city. City officers choose to commute distances and live outside their beats; and spare themselves an unbelievable high profile life. It's more than that and hard to explain even to other officers on the department. When I introduced myself to a new cadet class, a collective "ooh" always followed when I announced I was the Death Valley RP officer for six years. It's another world.

makakona

01-23-2006, 03:22 PM

Lucky and Retchp probably broke it all down better than anyone. The communities we serve are so foreign to city people you can't imagine. The poverty is unreal, and the domestic violence is just as prevelant. There are people where I work who come from five generations of farmers. There are kids out here who have never even seen the ocean. They learn about the city watching television. Being an RP officer means becoming a part of the community you police. In my off time I help my closer farm friends move irrigation lines, cut, bail, and stack alfalfa, winterize their fields, and attend countless BBQ's afterwards. When I'm working the road and have to clear a stray calf out of the road, I know which farmer to call or I can get them back behind the fence myself. I work crashes with volunteer fireman, not metropolitan professionals. And I know them all by first name. Instead of having coffee with beat partners on my breaks, something we all miss, I join a counter-full of farmers at the local diner. That's what it means to join a community. You simply can't experience that in the city. City officers choose to commute distances and live outside their beats; and spare themselves an unbelievable high profile life. It's more than that and hard to explain even to other officers on the department. When I introduced myself to a new cadet class, a collective "ooh" always followed when I announced I was the Death Valley RP officer for six years. It's another world.

okay, what does it mean if this made me cry? other than the fact that i'm overly hormonal, of course. ;)

we've talked about rp's. every time it comes up, we both say, "imagine raising the kids there!" any rp that's come up has been somewhere that seems like just a great place to raise a family for many of the reasons you mentioned above. maybe we need to more seriously consider it... :smile:

retchp

01-23-2006, 04:31 PM

uoplax13 wrote:
A little question off of the article quoted above.....the Assistant Chief was quoted as saying RP's are for areas like Death Valley or Truckee.....this has not a whole lot to do with the discussion on this thread, but I had always thought Truckee was a normal area office, same for South Lake Tahoe, Gold Run, and even up north in Quincy. Are some of these RP's or is there a RP in Sierraville or some other small town up this way? It would make sense with the way things are spread out up here...

There is an RP in Loyalton for Truckee and one in Portola (which is now a substation) for Quincy.

gofly

01-23-2006, 11:07 PM

Thank you Lucky Seven and Your Mentor for your input and descriptions. I hope everyone can see that I was in FAVOR of keeping the rp's when I started my additions to this thread (I even stated that explicitly two times in my first post) and I am even more supportive of the rp's now with the added insight. But if I were a rp officer or a citizen of a community that was served by a rp, I would have done everything in my power to make sure it stayed open. I would have made sure the reasons the rp was needed were made clear to the people who were deciding the fate of the the rp. Using the press, petitions, letters, whatever it took. I, personally, just wanted more of a feel of how valuable the rp's are to a community like this (and I am a city guy but I know that community policing and community relations are the best tools law enforcement can use.) It took a while but thanks again for providing that information. I don't know where the idea came from that I was opposed to the rp's or in any way was trying to attack any officer. Both Officer Lawton and Your Mentor (in another thread) said the take home car and no commute were perks of the rp. I also did acknowledge the huge amount of on call time officers put in. But like all of the officers said, it was something you chose to do. There are good points and bad to any assignment. I hope the CHP and the officers and the community will work harder to keep the rp open or come up with a safe solution to the unique situation in that area.

Tom, I'm glad you have a flair for the dramatic. (The funerals really have no place in this discussion.) I know the VA points are the law. I'm still interested in the reasons as to why they are needed. They are law and that's the way it is and I'll live with it, fine. But I kind of wanted to see if people could come up with any reasons at to why they are still needed. You can't. Or you haven't. But think about this as well: you keep saying they are a benefit for military service. They are not. They are compensation. A benefit would be a salary increase or a signing bonus provided to a person because they are more valuable to the department. (Like the increase in pay for pilots, paramedics, bilingual officers, training officers, instructors, etc.) Since the 5 (or more) VA points are given at the COMPETITIVE stage of the testing process, they are just affirmitive action. They want to give certain people "an equal playing field" with their competitors. For some reason, the government feels that former military people need extra points to make them COMPETITIVE in the process. READ THIS PLEASE: I don't feel this is necessary. For reasons stated in a previous thread, military experience is one of the most valuable things to have to discuss during the QAP. So I'll ask again, WHY are the points given and why are they still necessary? If the government wanted to help veterans they would pay them more, provide better healthcare, and provide the best possible equipment for them to use while in the field, defending OUR country.

good luck...be safe

pupdog

01-23-2006, 11:22 PM

I know there's been some tense moments, but I wanted all involved to know that I've really enjoyed this thread. Earlier, I asked that an RP was! I had NO IDEA such a position existed! This, and the concerns raised, as been very educational for me, and hopefully my fellow forum applicants!
Thanks again to the powers that be for this forum!!!!

uoplax13

01-24-2006, 01:24 AM

I hope someday I get to work an RP or at least out of a pretty rural office. This thread has just added to the desire.

Maybe the extra points for military service assume that the person who served went into the military instead of college, and that since having an education past high school is an advantage, someone who went into the military instead might not have had the advantage (?) of more education. How's that for a horribly confusing and poorly written sentence from an "educated" person? Hopefully I'm not opening up a can-o-worms here, because I am not saying one person (college vs. military) is smarter or more qualified than the other. I don't know....maybe that was the thinking behind the extra points...or that some people made a sacrifice to serve and they should be rewarded....yes, it would be great if that reward translated into pay or better equipment, etc... while they served..........anyway, trying to get back to reasons why the points are still needed....I don't have any statistics in front of me, but I'd assume (and I could be wrong) that a large number of enlisted men and women do not have degrees, and right up there with military experience is education when it comes to the QAP (I think). I don't have any military experience, but my interview went great (minus the DQ :smile:) because I was able to discuss my education- on paper, a 23 year old with a few years in the military might not look as good vs. a 23 year old with a MS ....or maybe someone that has been in school for a while might have more relevant experiences to draw on that aren't all from the military. In that case, the 23 year old that enlisted right out of high school might have a little disadvantage. That's not to say that his military experience wouldn't be impressive, but he just might not be as developed in other areas of his life.....maybe. Just a thought to throw into the discussion. Don't get me wrong, I know military guys that are really smart and ones that aren't....and it's the same with college educated people too......any idiot with enough money and free time can get a degree, but I think that if another candidate, that only had a little experience as an enlisted soldier, compared resumes with me, he'd be the one with a disadvantage. Yes that's pretty arrogant, but whatever. Hopefully I've demonstrated a little neutrality on this so as not to piss anyone off too much.....and if I have, I'm sure that if we were chatting about this over a couple of beers I would make more sense and we'd might see more eye to eye on things.

Geez, sorry that was so long. I'm taking a little break from walking around in the cold.....since I'm stuck here until 7:30 am.....guess I better get used to working long hours at night if I want this job huh? That really is too bad about the RP closing. It really sounds like a great thing for both the officers and the community.

Tom

01-24-2006, 06:40 AM

uoplaotx13,

That makes sense to me and is as good as any to the reasons. I guess I'm not a liberal free-thinker that questions laws. Those kind of opinions will not fare well in the hiring process and with good reason. Those kind of people are weeded out in the process OR they promote to Sgt. with 2 years on! Good luck to you.

Tom

uoplax13

01-24-2006, 06:58 AM

I'm all for the Vet. points, but I guess I can see the other side to it. I might not agree with not giving them out, but I can understand some of the reasoning...kinda...hopefully I'm coming across as that "liberal free thinker" that is just exploring some possible reasons behind a law, and not one that is discounting it altogether. I'm guessing that in this line of work being able to seperate your personal feelings from the letter of the law is a necessary skill- at least in terms of letting feelings affect whether or not you are going to enforce something...i.e. if it's a law, then it's your job to enforce it. I met a Sgt. from an undisclosed office that promoted up fairly quick.....although I'm sure the men below him in rank listened to him and respected him in that sense, I got the feeling that his opinion mattered a little less than the older Sgt. that had some experience to back it all up.

Tom

01-24-2006, 07:03 AM

That is certainly a neccessary trait, no doubt. And your ideas of the Sergeant respect is close as well. There are always differences. There are some very young and junior Sergeants that are very well-respected and some older/senior Sergeants that are not. How is that for a bi-partisan answer!

Tom

uoplax13

01-24-2006, 07:59 AM

I don't think I could have straddled that one any better!

Chippysgt

01-24-2006, 10:35 AM

Okay, Tom, you earned a couple of extra weekends off...........:biggrin:

I thought it might be helpful to add this information to the questions that have been raised about veterans preference. This is not a new concept. It actually started after the Revolutionary War and it is based on sacrifice and the willingness to serve in our countrys military. Also, their willingness to lay down their lives rather than swerve from the path of duty. The same thing we look for in officers of the CHP. That is the way it is and the way it should be in my humble opinion.

http://www.opm.gov/employ/veterans/html/vghist.asp#TOP

Tom

01-24-2006, 10:54 AM

Thank you Sarge,

Excellent post. I am VERY guilty of allowing my emotions to take over. I, for one, should know that a message board forum is a difficult place to truely "place stock" in someones character. I'm sure that allowed my normally un-judgemental self to be overrriden in the case of Gofly and for that I apologize to the entire board (and, yes, even Gofly). While it does not change my feelings on the matter I am not under recognizing my mistakes.

Tom

uoplax13

01-24-2006, 04:07 PM

Wow, that's a hell of a history lesson. I would have thought it only started back around the Vietnam era....interesting link!

Kurt

01-24-2006, 04:41 PM

I thought it might be helpful to add this information to the questions that have been raised about veterans preference. This is not a new concept. It actually started after the Revolutionary War and it is based on sacrifice and the willingness to serve in our countrys military. Their willingness to lay down their lives rather than swerve from the path of duty. The same thing we look for in officers of the CHP. That is the way it is and the way it should be in my humble opinion.

Thank you for posting that, Sgt., I am very glad this was explained because I was curious as to why someone would get extra points "simply" for being in the military for a while. This answers the reasoning behind that 100% and I totally support the protocol.

gofly

01-24-2006, 11:43 PM

Tom, sorry to say but there may never be a final say to this topic...but that's the good thing about open minded discussion. Thanks for the apology, i guess, but this wasn't meant to get personal. I just want reasons. I think, as should everyone, that the actions we take and laws we follow should make sense and be justifiable. That is one of the very few things I feel all people should try to understand.

The post about the history of VA preference points was very informative and interesting. Just something more for all of you to think about: times are very different now. After the revolutionary war, the government was brand new and needed people to work in the government, not just return to their farms and forget about what they fought for. During WW2 and Vietnam, a majority of the soldiers were drafted and pulled away from their lives and needed much assistance when returning to the states to look for jobs with so much competition. However, no one in todays military was drafted. They are all there because they chose to be there. For whatever reasons they had, it was their choice. They could have gone to college. (If someone wants it bad enough they will find a way. Grants, scholarships, work, whatever.) They could have decided to work. They could have decided to travel. They could have decided to become druggies or anything they wanted. But they decided to join the military, a very noble and commendable choice. It is not a sacrifice to be in todays military. It is a job. During WW2 and Vietnam it was a sacrifice because the men did not want to be there for the most part. They were taken away from their families and homes and told to fight. Todays soldiers wanted to be where they are. (I'm not saying they wanted to be in IRAQ or in the desert, but they knew that was part of the job they took.) The military provides some of the finest training in the world in a variety of areas. The educational opportunities and incentives are great. They are paid and given medical benefits. Before 2001 it was rare for soldiers to be in a war zone (I know there were situations but they involved far fewer personnel.) Most of the military guys I knew in the late 90's were stationed at Camp Pendelton, on the beach, had housing for their families in a very expensive location, surfed a private beach on the base, and loved everything and all the benefits they received from being in the military. Even the ones at other bases loved the travel, lifestyle, and benefits they got from the government. Not the best jobs they said, but it didn't require any education or experience. It was their choice to join, just as it is today.

It really sucks that most people who sign up for the military today are most likely going to the desert at some point. It is tough, dangerous work and too many Americans are being killed or wounded. But all of the opportunities are still available to them and it is still any persons CHOICE to sign up. If people who joined the military today went for no pay and refused the benifits and opportunity offered to them, then it would be a sacrafice. Now it is a decision. A decision that everyone can make on their own. And each person can decide to go in whatever direction they want.

I'll say it again for everyone who may read this the wrong way: I have the utmost respect for the people who chose to join the military, may put their lives at risk, and work to defend the USA. But I don't want to diminish the fact that everyone chooses what they want to do and because it is a volunteer military it was their choice. If people don't want to go they don't have to. Everyone in the military today knows the positive and negative aspects of being in the military. That's the great thing about the all volunteer military. If there was a draft, it would be an entirely different situation.

Just read all this with an open mind and develop your own thoughts. It's not a bad thing to be a "free thinker." Even a liberal one.

good luck...be safe

Welpe

01-25-2006, 12:26 AM

It is not a sacrifice to be in todays military. It is a job.

That's a pretty bold statement there. I have a few buddies in the sandbox right now that might disagree with that slightly. Not to mention their families and friends who haven't seen them in almost a year.

Regardless, the fact remains the vet points are there. There have been many good reasons given for why they are there. The servicemen and women of this country provide a highly valuable and noble service to this country. It is not just a job, it is service. Veterans points are simply one of the ways for our country to say "thank you" to them.

Cameron

01-25-2006, 01:01 AM

Sacrifice: Forfeiture of something highly valued for the sake of one considered to have a greater value or claim. (Webster's Dictionary)

My $.02:
Serving in our nation's military is definitely a sacrifice, it is much more than a job. The things you forfeit when you join the military are the many personal freedoms that most people take for granted.

I.e.- the freedom of movement, freedom of speech, and even the freedom to live. In the military, you might receive orders that could take you to your death. You gave up the right to refuse these orders when you signed the dotted line. That is quite a sacrifice. An ordinary person in an ordinary job could just quit the job at that point and walk away. Yeah, sure they volunteered to do it. We've already established that there is no draft.

But "Gofly," you are trying to say that if there WERE a draft, then and ONLY THEN would serving in the military be a sacrifice. Well, pal, a sacrifice is, again, a "forfeiture of something highly valued." This forfeiture is a decision you make. Using your own logic, and applying it to the actual definition of "sacrifice," if there WERE a draft, then people would not have to make a sacrifice, because they would have no choice BUT to join the military.

They would not be forfeiting the possibility of doing something else with their lives, because they wouldn't have a choice in the matter. I'm just trying to follow your reasoning here... But since there IS no draft, and these people DO HAVE the opportunity to pursue safer, more profitable careers, then joining the military is DEFINITELY a forfeiture, and therefore, a sacrifice.

Whatever makes a serviceman/woman sign the dotted line is their own business, I imagine that most people join the military in hopes that the military experience will aid in self-growth in some respect. Whatever the reasons, though, these people forfeit a lot... much more than us soft civilians ever have to give up in our everyday lives.

Do you know what the salary is for an E-2 Sailor in the U.S. Navy? Bear in mind that the rank of E-2 means that the person has already been in the Navy for about 6-18 months at the lower pay rating of an E-1. The salary of an E-2 is a whopping $1,384/month.

That seems like a paltry sum, considering that you are on a ship which could conceivably be blown up anytime, anywhere, by anybody... you could make this same salary working a minimum wage job in the U.S. with no fear of drowning, burning, or other unpleasantries...

I'm not a vet, but I think that veterans' preference points are just fine. These people sacrificed much to serve our country, and it only seems fair that they should have a good shot at getting a handsomely-paying job with their state.

Cameron

01-25-2006, 01:15 AM

GoFly,

I would like to stress one more point. According to your logic, draftees have sacrificed much and volunteers sacrifice nothing. Personally, GoFly, I think they have ALL sacrificed much. Your logic seems a bit off. Read previous post for further explanation.

And GoFly, it's great that you respect the U.S. service personnel... but man... what they do is way more than just a JOB... it is a duty. Saying that it is "just a job" denigrates everything about these people in one fell swoop.

Their duty is a very precious, solemn thing that we can never understand unless we are in their shoes... the knowledge that they- in the abstract AND in brutal reality- protect our crazy, multi-opinionated, beautiful nation. What an amazing thing.

gofly

01-25-2006, 01:24 AM

It's late and I'm up way too late. But I wanted to say I appreciate your feelings and emotions in your responses. And I hope all the ones tomorrow and the following days will be as level headed as these so far. Using evidence and reasons to support their arguments is a powerful tool.

Also, please read my entire statement, not just the words you don't agree with. I am not anti military, i do have many friends in the desert right now (and i hope every day for everyones safe return) and I show my appreciation to veterans of all ages in many ways each day. Also remember that the military (and the world) before 9/11 was a very different place. But people still joined the military then for various reasons as they do now. Some of those reasons have changed, but not all. (as a total aside, wasn't the recruiting slogan a while ago "It's not just a job, it's an adventure" Look how that has changed.)

good luck...be safe

Tom

01-25-2006, 09:54 AM

So much for final thing huh!,

Well, Gofly I'm happy for your opinion and we all know what opinions are like....try as I might to be civil to you it amazes me with the rhetoric that you type in this forum. It actually amazes me that others haven't told you these things before! You attempt to shield yourself with your disclaimers but I think we can see the real you.

I'm sure the guys that you knew/know at Camp Pendleton, or thereabouts, really liked what they were doing. Thats great. I liked what I did as well. Your entire post, along with all your others, is your own misconception. To say that prior to 2001 it was rare for soldiers to be in a warzone! What are you talking about? Maybe not a warzone but how about something equally as dangerous or more dangerous or maybe someone elses warzone? In my 9+ years in the Navy I cannot, to this day, tell you where I was. Do you want to know why? It certainly wasn't becasue I was in Disneyland or Shangri-La or the air-conditioned room of some community college. The truth is you have no idea what the military is like, except what you've heard or read about. And that's OK. Just don't let your knowledge on the situation overpower your forum posting ability.

We used to say in the Military that we gave up our rights to protect the rights of others. I don't consider that just a job. Maybe you do and thats OK too. And lets revisit my other post...if there were no military volunteers there would have to be a draft......and you might be the one in the sand today instead. Which makes me think, if you are young enough to still get on the Patrol its not too late for you to sign up in the military....go ahead.....its just a job!

Tom

EDIT - For the sake of sensationalism let me give you some info; USS Cole, USS Scorpion, USS Thresher, Marine barracks Lebanon, Rangers in Grenada and Somalia, MM2/SS Ashley of the USS San Francisco who was killed when the San Francisco ran aground. Which one of these are in warzones? Just a few who died on the job and just a few who are rolling in their graves...after defending your right to freedom of expression and speech.

gofly

01-25-2006, 10:34 AM

Tom, I think it's kind of funny that I can get under your skin for simply provinding my opinions backed by facts or explanations when, during our entire exchange you have not brought any facts or original ideas to the thread. But yes you are right, we all have our opinions and they all smell, yours included. But on this board, even though I completely support the members of the military and the difficult things they do, I come across as a minority. I just wanted people to remember that the men and women of the armed forces are smart and capable people, who made an informed decision when they decided to join the military. But it was their own decision and they did have other options. Especially people who signed up after 9/11/2001, they showed huge amounts of heart and courage, but all people who served at any time should be commended.

Please, again, don't judge my character. You don't know me, what I do, or what I am about. If I had to develop judgements about you simply based on two topics, it would not be fair at all.

I appreciate some of the other posters (cameron, welpe, and chippysgt so far) who put thought into what they said or did a little research. I think that is the most valuable part of a discussion like this. I, for one, enjoy learning others feelings and opinions. Sometimes it influences my view and sometimes it does not. But I can hear other view points with out getting personal or deciding someone is wrong and declaring them a bad person. Especially on a topic like this where it has no influence on my character or if I will someday make a quality CHP officer. (and yes, tom, i will make a great CHP officer. I will do whatever it takes to make sure everyone gets home safely every night, even you.)

good luck...be safe

Tom

01-25-2006, 10:51 AM

Don't think for one second you have gotten under my skin. I have dealt with the dregs of society and you don't hold a candle to them, and that's a good thing. I have never judged your character and even admitting my shortcomings in a previous post yet you persist. Hey, thats OK. Go with it.

I don't know what more facts you need, I gave them all to you but you just don't want to see them. Your playing of "Devils advocate" and your thinly-veiled disclaimers say more than I ever could.

I wish you the best in your pursuit of this profession and I'm sure you will do your best. When, and I will say when, you get on this job you needn't worry about my getting home though. I'm an Officer AND a veteran, I can handle it myself.

Tom

rich

01-25-2006, 10:52 AM

I know that everyone who joins the military does so of their own free will, but it is way more than just a job. Ask the 138,000 men and women of our armed forces currently serving in Iraq right now about that one. Or even the familys of the 2100 plus who have given their live over there to protect your and my freedoms. All of us who signed that contract were completly aware of what we were getting into, and you have no idea the sacrifices that we had to make and the simple liberties we give up being in the military. I spent seven months in the big sandbox, IEDs, RPGs, land mines, mortars, etc great job description huh.

Your Mentor

01-25-2006, 01:48 PM

Your Mentor

01-25-2006, 04:38 PM

Makakona,
An RP can be a great place to raise a family. However, there are usually hazards that replace those of raising a family in the city. For example, your husband will likely be the highest paid individual in the community. The three of us out here are. The community sees that quite clearly. It's hard to hide a nice car, nice clothes, nice toys, etc. Every impoverished child, who is probably subjected to domestic violence at home, will know your children as a cop's kids. That doesn't always protect them; rather it sometimes makes them a target. The farm kids, however, are like kids from the 40's. Schools sports are more important to farm families than professional sports. One problem in rural areas is meth. It seems to accompany poverty and substance abuse. Not with the farm families but with other subcultures which seem to gravitate to the country.

That said, the pros outweigh the cons. The clear air is my personal favorite. I enjoy outdoor sports and prefer not to have to drive hundreds of miles to go backpacking, mountainbiking, cross country skiing, etc.

uoplax13

01-25-2006, 06:57 PM

I not nearly as far out from civilization as a RP would be, but I definately hear what YM's talking about. There are a lot of nice people up here, and the other other half or so have probably taken plenty of rides in CHP cars- not as ride alongs..... At my age I'm not sure being this isolated socially is a good thing (after spending 23 years growing up near friends and family, etc...), but the pros (awesome views, clean air, outdoors sports happening more frequently than video games and sitting around inside, etc.....) definately outweigh the cons. If there is, by some freak chance, an opening at an RP or rural office when the time comes for me to sign up my "dream sheet" I think I'd take any RP over LA!

01-25-2006, 07:50 PM

You know not every military veteran gets pref points. I didn't. Those of us who served throughout the 80's failed to do so during a time of war. So we got nothing. I served from Jan 80' to Dec 88'. I wasn't even entitled to the GI bill. Had I stayed in two more years I would have qualified due to Kuwait; whether I served there or not.

First let me say I've been busy for a few days and just read this. I ain't touching it with a 50 foot pole!

Mentor, did something change? Here is the definition of veteran from the preference points form:

"Veteran" means any person who has served full time for 30 days or more in the armed forces in time of war or in time of peace in a campaign or expedition for
service in which a medal has been authorized by the government of the United States, or during the period September 16, 1940, to January 31, 1955, or who has
served at least 181 consecutive days since January 31, 1955, and who has been discharged or released under conditions other than dishonorable, but
does not include any person who served only in auxiliary or reserve components of the armed forces whose service therein did not exempt him or her from the
operation of the Selective Training and Service Act of 1940.

As I read it, you would have been eligible, no?

Your Mentor

01-26-2006, 02:54 PM

dw,
Yes, it has changed. There were only certain veterans eligable back then; specifically Vietnam era vets. The changes didn't take place until after the Gulf War. Same applied to Cal-Vet benefits. About the only benefits I was, and am still eligible for, is the VA home loan program. As it was back in 88', I competed without the points. Still, I can't complain. I started testing in June and entered the Academy in December. Not bad.

johnnyd

01-31-2006, 09:59 PM

Very good link, thanks for posting it. Both positions have valid arguments. I guess the best way to look at it is not in the theoretical or moral sense of whether its right or wrong to give preference to some and not to all, rather the practical sense of its usage. I.e. we all know forms of affirmative action exist whether we like it or not or whether its right or wrong. That being the case, those in the military sometimes face a limited array of jobs as opposed to one who went to college. Therefore, if they sacrificed their time to do what the country deams noble, they should be commended, awarded, and subsequently given a "boost" when they leave the military in order to ensure they have a stable means of employment. The last segment of society you want to piss off is the military - that's how coups are run.
I, for one, believe in personal responsibility, hard-work, and limited hand-outs so accepting veterans preference points is something I've questioned. But I realize the practical necessity of it as a nation.