Question about line and reflector patterns

[CHPUSMC]

Does the sollowing picture represent two single solid yellow lines? Could it be one set of double yellows? Or is it two sets of double yellows? Do the reflectors count as a set of lines?

These lines are brand new after repaving of HWY 65 at Wheatland. The only reason I ask is that the large gap between the lines that normal lines do not have.

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6682/dsc00045gy0.jpg

[bcjack]

That is a double yellow line. It is enhanced with a rumble strip, designed to wake up sleepy drivers so they don't wander into opposing lanes of traffic. That road must have had a "significant" number of head-on collisions so it was put in. Rumble strips are not a real common road addition and usually there must be some "significant" accident history to get them put in...

[CHPUSMC]

That is a double yellow line. It is enhanced with a rumble strip, designed to wake up sleepy drivers so they don't wander into opposing lanes of traffic. That road must have had a "significant" number of head-on collisions so it was put in. Rumble strips are not a real common road addition and usually there must be some "significant" accident history to get them put in...

You are correct, I had a friend that was riding his motorcycle 10 years ago and he was killed by can you guess?....someone who fell asleep at the wheel.

I was just wondering because reflectors can count as painted lines in some instances and I was wondering if this was. Thanks for the info

[MotorInLA]

Rumble strips, also known as Braille driving...

[Mac]

The reflectors enhance the visibility of the double yellow lines at night and/or during inclement weather.

[retchp]

[retchp]

I may be incorrect, but my understanding is that the lines pictured in the configuration in the photo are the exact same thing as a freeway or road divider fence or barrier. They are two feet or more from edge to edge and thus do not meet the definition of standard double yellow lines, but constitute a "barrier" or a "divider". A driver (again in my opinion) is not allowed to make ANY turning movements over or across this configuration of roadway markings.
I almost posted this when the thread started but since I am a forgetful retiree I thought that some alert officer would state what I have stated above. . . unless of course, I am all wet?

[CHPUSMC]

I may be incorrect, but my understanding is that the lines pictured in the configuration in the photo are the exact same thing as a freeway or road divider fence or barrier. They are two feet or more from edge to edge and thus do not meet the definition of standard double yellow lines, but constitute a "barrier" or a "divider". A driver (again in my opinion) is not allowed to make ANY turning movements over or across this configuration of roadway markings.
I almost posted this when the thread started but since I am a forgetful retiree I thought that some alert officer would state what I have stated above. . . unless of course, I am all wet?

My first thought was that they were double yellows.

"When there are two sets of solid double yellow lines, such lines stand for a solid wall. Do not turn or drive across them."



Double Lines

21460. (a) When double parallel solid lines are in place, no person driving a vehicle shall drive to the left thereof, except as permitted in this section.

(d) Raised pavement markers may be used to simulate painted lines described in this section when the markers are placed in accordance with standards established by the Department of Transportation.

When you see the markers used in place of lines you still see the markers in the same pattern as the painted version of the lines. In general when reflectors are used to enhance a line they are placed on top of the line aren't they?

In this particular pattern thou are the reflectors representative of a second line?

[dw]

They are two feet or more from edge to edge and thus do not meet the definition of standard double yellow lines, but constitute a "barrier" or a "divider".

That's what I thought at first too, but looking more closely, I do not believe they are 48+ inches apart... The scale is difficult to judge, but I think they're just plain 'ol double yellows with a rumble strip added.

[Mac]

They are two feet or more from edge to edge and thus do not meet the definition of standard double yellow lines, but constitute a "barrier" or a "divider".

That's what I thought at first too, but looking more closely, I do not believe they are 48+ inches apart... The scale is difficult to judge, but I think they're just plain 'ol double yellows with a rumble strip added.
I agree that they're not "double doubles"......remember though, that 21651(a) specifies that a dividing section is 2 feet (24" ), not 48".

In general when reflectors are used to enhance a line they are placed on top of the line aren't they?
No. If they did that, the reflectors would get painted over everytime they re-painted the lines.

[SweetTaterPie]

To constitute a "physical" barrier against turns and crossing, as retchp stated, the lines need to be 2' or more in width. However, that can be accomplished with two sets of double yellow lines 2'+ apart, or, with two single yellow lines 2'+ apart. Divided highways use the second method, while undivided highways, generally, use the first. BTW, that's the first I've seen of rumble strips between lines; we have them here and only on the shoulders. Great idea though!

[dw]

That's what I thought at first too, but looking more closely, I do not believe they are 48+ inches apart... The scale is difficult to judge, but I think they're just plain 'ol double yellows with a rumble strip added.
I agree that they're not "double doubles"......remember though, that 21651(a) specifies that a dividing section is 2 feet (24" ), not 48".

Yeah, that's what I meant... I was thinking 2' but typed 48"...

[MotorInLA]

To constitute a "physical" barrier against turns and crossing, as retchp stated, the lines need to be 2' or more in width. However, that can be accomplished with two sets of double yellow lines 2'+ apart, or, with two single yellow lines 2'+ apart. Divided highways use the second method, while undivided highways, generally, use the first. BTW, that's the first I've seen of rumble strips between lines; we have them here and only on the shoulders. Great idea though!

Eh??? Where in the vehicle code does it state that two single yellow lines 2'+ apart constitute a dividing section? I think this is wishful thinking and not quite true as of the 2006 version of the CVC.

Looking at the picture it also appears that the portion of the road covered by the yellow lines and rumble strip is less than 2' wide, thus not a dividing section by any interpretation of the current codes.

[dw]

To constitute a "physical" barrier against turns and crossing, as retchp stated, the lines need to be 2' or more in width. However, that can be accomplished with two sets of double yellow lines 2'+ apart, or, with two single yellow lines 2'+ apart. Divided highways use the second method, while undivided highways, generally, use the first. BTW, that's the first I've seen of rumble strips between lines; we have them here and only on the shoulders. Great idea though!

Eh??? Where in the vehicle code does it state that two single yellow lines 2'+ apart constitute a dividing section? I think this is wishful thinking and not quite true as of the 2006 version of the CVC.

Looking at the picture it also appears that the portion of the road covered by the yellow lines and rumble strip is less than 2' wide, thus not a dividing section by any interpretation of the current codes.



21651. (a) Whenever a highway has been divided into two or more roadways by means of intermittent barriers or by means of a dividing section of not less than two feet in width, either unpaved or delineated by curbs, double-parallel lines, or other markings on the roadway, it is unlawful to do either of the following:
(1) To drive any vehicle over, upon, or across the dividing section.
(2) To make any left, semicircular, or U-turn with the vehicle on the divided highway, except through an opening in the barrier designated and intended by public authorities for the use of vehicles or through a plainly marked opening in the dividing section.

By the way, I think we all agree 21651 does not apply in this case -- I'm simply saying you can have a divided roadway with single lines. An example (at least with the courts I've worked with) is a gore point (defined by solid white lines), provided the portion transversed is greater than two feet wide.

[SweetTaterPie]

To constitute a "physical" barrier against turns and crossing, as retchp stated, the lines need to be 2' or more in width. However, that can be accomplished with two sets of double yellow lines 2'+ apart, or, with two single yellow lines 2'+ apart. Divided highways use the second method, while undivided highways, generally, use the first. BTW, that's the first I've seen of rumble strips between lines; we have them here and only on the shoulders. Great idea though!

Eh??? Where in the vehicle code does it state that two single yellow lines 2'+ apart constitute a dividing section? I think this is wishful thinking and not quite true as of the 2006 version of the CVC.

Looking at the picture it also appears that the portion of the road covered by the yellow lines and rumble strip is less than 2' wide, thus not a dividing section by any interpretation of the current codes.



First, I wasn't insinuating that the photo depicts yellow lines 2 feet or more apart from one another. And, I think we can all agree that a freeway is a divided highway. There is usually a median strip of various composition, and a single yellow line borders the median side of the #1 lane for each direction of traffic. In the case of a divider with no concrete barrier, what's to prevent a motorist from arbitrarily driving across the median strip, if the two yellow lines (one each side of the median) don't constitute a barrier to that movement? Such movements fall under the provisions of CVC Section 21651. Hope I wasn't too "wishful" in my response.

[MotorInLA]

First, I wasn't insinuating that the photo depicts yellow lines 2 feet or more apart from one another. And, I think we can all agree that a freeway is a divided highway. There is usually a median strip of various composition, and a single yellow line borders the median side of the #1 lane for each direction of traffic. In the case of a divider with no concrete barrier, what's to prevent a motorist from arbitrarily driving across the median strip, if the two yellow lines (one each side of the median) don't constitute a barrier to that movement? Such movements fall under the provisions of CVC Section 21651. Hope I wasn't too "wishful" in my response.[/quote]

I think it is the "median strip of various composition" rather than the yellow line on both sides of that median strip that qualifies that particular section of the highway as a "divided highway".

But hey, what do I know about freeways, I work on city streets...

[Processing]

but wait...
if a car crosses the rumble strip, and no other cars are within visible distance, does it make any noise?

[SweetTaterPie]

First, I wasn't insinuating that the photo depicts yellow lines 2 feet or more apart from one another. And, I think we can all agree that a freeway is a divided highway. There is usually a median strip of various composition, and a single yellow line borders the median side of the #1 lane for each direction of traffic. In the case of a divider with no concrete barrier, what's to prevent a motorist from arbitrarily driving across the median strip, if the two yellow lines (one each side of the median) don't constitute a barrier to that movement? Such movements fall under the provisions of CVC Section 21651. Hope I wasn't too "wishful" in my response.

I think it is the "median strip of various composition" rather than the yellow line on both sides of that median strip that qualifies that particular section of the highway as a "divided highway".

But hey, what do I know about freeways, I work on city streets...[/quote]

MotorInLA:
I understand the difference between a divided and undivided highway, you'll just have to take my word for it. My point, which was evidently not articulated clearly enough, was that a single yellow line on either side of a divided highway's median strip regulates traffic in the same way as a set of parallel yellow lines two or more feet apart on a highway without a median strip: motorists may not cross over either.

[bcjack]

It shouldn't matter what the line/reflectors/median/pseudo-median is...Here in America, we are supposed to drive to the right of the center of the road aren't we???:badgrin:

[CHPUSMC]

It shouldn't matter what the line/reflectors/median/pseudo-median is...Here in America, we are supposed to drive to the right of the center of the road aren't we???:badgrin:

Allthou when the lines are dotted we can play on the other side of the middle! :smile:

[papa]

I am by far not the foremost expert in the Vehicle Code. However, I believe if one were to measure this center line configuration, they would find it to be a minimum of two feet, by design. Solid yellow lines 4", Yellow raised reflectors 4", with an 8" space between reflectors. This is the in-expensive way to put a median in. The violation appropriate for this type of center line would fall under Section 21651. (a) VC. Over the years I have seen several convictions, in at least four counties, for this violation, on this style of median. However, if the space in the center is less than 8", then it is back to the violation of Section 21650. VC.

[Yzeman]

I believe if one were to measure this center line configuration, they would find it to be a minimum of two feet, by design. Solid yellow lines 4", Yellow raised reflectors 4", with an 8" space between reflectors. This is the in-expensive way to put a median in. The violation appropriate for this type of center line would fall under Section 21651. (a) VC. Over the years I have seen several convictions, in at least four counties, for this violation, on this style of median. However, if the space in the center is less than 8", then it is back to the violation of Section 21650. VC.

You're right on both counts...and in this instance, the bots-dots (reflectors) are not placed on the outside of the rumble strip, so the measurement is less than 24". These are just a new version of the old...'solid double yellow lines' with a little twist. In this case the configuration used is an attempt to increase safety; this will help with sleepy drivers as well as the very heavy fog common to the area. This area of SR-65 is plagued by fatal collisions, along with SR-99, and there is currently a very active attempt to reduce fatal collisions and improve overall traffic safety in this area?.complete with lots of grant overtime to augment patrol, etc? Those familiar with the area know that there are very few places to turn left across these lines...but passing is a real problem...especially during commute times.

IMO...it's a great idea! ;)

[MotorInLA]

Sweet T.P. (no pun intended? well maybe a little):

Please don?t take this personally, it is not intended that way by any means. I simply disagree with your interpretation that a pair of single yellow lines with some sort of separation constitutes ?a median? as defined by the vehicle code. You seem to argue that this is the case when there is a grass/dirt median present, separating two opposite directions of travel, with a single yellow line delineating that median. My argument is that is the grass/dirt median that makes this fall under VC 21651(a), not the presence of the single yellow line that delineates the edges of this type of median.

IMO it would seem that a more appropriate section for someone crossing over to the left of the section pictured earlier in this post would be VC 21460(a) ? Driving to the left of double yellow lines. It would appear there is no section in itself that would prohibit a driver from driving partially onto the portion of the road between the solid single yellow lines pictured, other than perhaps VC 21658(a) ? Vehicle shall be operated entirely within a single lane.

Please let me know if you have evidence to the contrary.

P.S. - It seems to me that it would be beneficial to keep a roadway such as the one pictured as an "undivided highway", since this limits maximum speed to 55 mph, rather than adding a median and creating a "divided highway" with a maximum speed of 65 mph.

[SweetTaterPie]

Sweet T.P. (no pun intended? well maybe a little):

Please don?t take this personally, it is not intended that way by any means. I simply disagree with your interpretation that a pair of single yellow lines with some sort of separation constitutes ?a median? as defined by the vehicle code. You seem to argue that this is the case when there is a grass/dirt median present, separating two opposite directions of travel, with a single yellow line delineating that median. My argument is that is the grass/dirt median that makes this fall under VC 21651(a), not the presence of the single yellow line that delineates the edges of this type of median.

IMO it would seem that a more appropriate section for someone crossing over to the left of the section pictured earlier in this post would be VC 21460(a) ? Driving to the left of double yellow lines. It would appear there is no section in itself that would prohibit a driver from driving partially onto the portion of the road between the solid single yellow lines pictured, other than perhaps VC 21658(a) ? Vehicle shall be operated entirely within a single lane.

Please let me know if you have evidence to the contrary.

P.S. - It seems to me that it would be beneficial to keep a roadway such as the one pictured as an "undivided highway", since this limits maximum speed to 55 mph, rather than adding a median and creating a "divided highway" with a maximum speed of 65 mph.

I thought about writing a nice long reply, you know, something to assist in clarifying what I've already written; being a bit slow on the uptake, I didn't immediately realize you're on some sort of a mission. You continue to argue along lines I've not discussed; you insist you're not being personal, yet you are; there's no answer that will satisfy you, no opinion offered that you won't skew. Hope you had fun. Consider entertaining yourself in a more worthwhile way.

[MotorInLA]

I thought about writing a nice long reply, you know, something to assist in clarifying what I've already written; being a bit slow on the uptake, I didn't immediately realize you're on some sort of a mission. You continue to argue along lines I've not discussed; you insist you're not being personal, yet you are; there's no answer that will satisfy you, no opinion offered that you won't skew. Hope you had fun. Consider entertaining yourself in a more worthwhile way.

Dude,

it's all in good fun.

I was simply trying to find out what you were basing your opinion on with respect to the single yellow lines. That's all. If you took that as some sort of personal attack, I think you're wound a little too tight. Not everybody is the bad guy. I was just trying to have a friendly exchange of ideas (I thought that was the purpose of a "forum" ) with some levity thrown in to lighten things up.

[Yzeman]

Consider entertaining yourself in a more worthwhile way.

Thank You!!

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Buy the way MoLa...do the smileys above represent a solid double yellow line...er....or a dividing section?

Sorry....couldn't resist....all in good fun...hehe;)

[bcjack]

All those smiley faces are probably wide enough to be a median...:biggrin:

[Mac]

All those smiley faces are probably wide enough to be a median...:biggrin:
All depends on what scale they're drawn to. :badgrin: