Tail Light Question

[JoeyMac323]

Hey all,

As you know, some vehicles have a third tail light, located at the center of the back of the car. I have been told if this light is not working correctly, we wouldn't have PC to stop the vehicle. What is your take on this?

Thanks in advance and be safe.

- JoeyMac

[PapaBear]

The third lamp your refer to is a STOP LAMP, not a tail lamp. Here is the law:

Stoplamps

24603. Every motor vehicle which is not in combination with any other vehicle and every vehicle at the end of a combination of vehicles shall at all times be equipped with stoplamps mounted on the rear as follows:

(a) Every such vehicle shall be equipped with one or more stoplamps.

(b) Every such vehicle, other than a motorcycle, manufactured and first registered on or after January 1, 1958, shall be equipped with two stoplamps, except that trailers and semitrailers manufactured after July 23, 1973, which are less than 30 inches wide, may be equipped with one stoplamp which shall be mounted at or near the vertical centerline of the trailer. If such vehicle is equipped with two stoplamps, they shall be mounted as specified in subdivision (d).

(c) Except as provided in subdivision (h), stoplamps on vehicles manufactured on or after January 1, 1969, shall be mounted not lower than 15 inches nor higher than 72 inches, except that a tow truck, in addition to being equipped with the required stoplamps, may also be equipped with two stoplamps which may be mounted not lower than 15 inches nor higher than the maximum allowable vehicle height and as far forward as the rearmost portion of the driver's seat in the rearmost position.

(d) Where two stoplamps are required, at least one shall be mounted at the left and one at the right side, respectively, at the same level.

(e) Stoplamps on vehicles manufactured on or after January 1, 1979, shall emit a red light. Stoplamps on vehicles manufactured before January 1, 1979, shall emit a red or yellow light. All stoplamps shall be plainly visible and understandable from a distance of 300 feet to the rear both during normal sunlight and at nighttime, except that stoplamps on a vehicle of a size required to be equipped with clearance lamps shall be visible from a distance of 500 feet during such times.

(f) Stoplamps shall be activated upon application of the service (foot) brake and the hand control head for air, vacuum, or electric brakes. In addition, all stoplamps may be activated by a mechanical device designed to function only upon sudden release of the accelerator while the vehicle is in motion. Stoplamps on vehicles equipped with a manual transmission may be manually activated by a mechanical device when the vehicle is downshifted if the device is automatically rendered inoperative while the vehicle is accelerating.

(g) Any vehicle may be equipped with supplemental stoplamps mounted to the rear of the rearmost portion of the driver's seat in its rearmost position in addition to the lamps required to be mounted on the rear of the vehicle. Supplemental stoplamps installed after January 1, 1979, shall be red in color and mounted not lower than 15 inches above the roadway. The supplemental stoplamp on that side of a vehicle toward which a turn will be made may flash as part of the supplemental turn signal lamp.

A supplemental stoplamp may be mounted inside the rear window of a vehicle, if it is mounted at the centerline of the vehicle and is constructed and mounted so as to prevent any light, other than a monitorial indicator emitted from the device, either direct or reflected, from being visible to the driver.
(h) Any supplemental stoplamp installed after January 1, 1987, shall comply with Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 108 (49 C.F.R. 571.10:cool:. Any vehicle equipped with a stoplamp which complies with the federal motor vehicle safety standards applicable to that make and model vehicle shall conform to that applicable safety standard unless modified to comply with the federal motor vehicle safety standard designated in this subdivision.

Amended Ch. 924, Stats. 1988. Effective January 1, 1989.

I have enhanced the reason above. Since the THIRD STOP LAMP is permissive and not mandatory, there is no requirement that it be maintained. ERGO, no PC for a stop; however, as a courtesy you may stop the driver to point out the the stop lamp is not working and is therefore ineffective. In so doing, if you should notice something amiss, you have the opportunity to venture further.

[PapaBear]

Stoplamps

24603. Every motor vehicle which is not in combination with any other vehicle and every vehicle at the end of a combination of vehicles shall at all times be equipped with stoplamps mounted on the rear as follows:

(a) Every such vehicle shall be equipped with one or more stoplamps.

(b) Every such vehicle, other than a motorcycle, manufactured and first registered on or after January 1, 1958, shall be equipped with two stoplamps, except that trailers and semitrailers manufactured after July 23, 1973, which are less than 30 inches wide, may be equipped with one stoplamp which shall be mounted at or near the vertical centerline of the trailer. If such vehicle is equipped with two stoplamps, they shall be mounted as specified in subdivision (d).

(c) Except as provided in subdivision (h), stoplamps on vehicles manufactured on or after January 1, 1969, shall be mounted not lower than 15 inches nor higher than 72 inches, except that a tow truck, in addition to being equipped with the required stoplamps, may also be equipped with two stoplamps which may be mounted not lower than 15 inches nor higher than the maximum allowable vehicle height and as far forward as the rearmost portion of the driver's seat in the rearmost position.

(d) Where two stoplamps are required, at least one shall be mounted at the left and one at the right side, respectively, at the same level.

(e) Stoplamps on vehicles manufactured on or after January 1, 1979, shall emit a red light. Stoplamps on vehicles manufactured before January 1, 1979, shall emit a red or yellow light. All stoplamps shall be plainly visible and understandable from a distance of 300 feet to the rear both during normal sunlight and at nighttime, except that stoplamps on a vehicle of a size required to be equipped with clearance lamps shall be visible from a distance of 500 feet during such times.

(f) Stoplamps shall be activated upon application of the service (foot) brake and the hand control head for air, vacuum, or electric brakes. In addition, all stoplamps may be activated by a mechanical device designed to function only upon sudden release of the accelerator while the vehicle is in motion. Stoplamps on vehicles equipped with a manual transmission may be manually activated by a mechanical device when the vehicle is downshifted if the device is automatically rendered inoperative while the vehicle is accelerating.

(g) Any vehicle may be equipped with supplemental stoplamps mounted to the rear of the rearmost portion of the driver's seat in its rearmost position in addition to the lamps required to be mounted on the rear of the vehicle. Supplemental stoplamps installed after January 1, 1979, shall be red in color and mounted not lower than 15 inches above the roadway. The supplemental stoplamp on that side of a vehicle toward which a turn will be made may flash as part of the supplemental turn signal lamp.

A supplemental stoplamp may be mounted inside the rear window of a vehicle, if it is mounted at the centerline of the vehicle and is constructed and mounted so as to prevent any light, other than a monitorial indicator emitted from the device, either direct or reflected, from being visible to the driver.

(h) Any supplemental stoplamp installed after January 1, 1987, shall comply with Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 108 (49 C.F.R. 571.108 ). Any vehicle equipped with a stoplamp which complies with the federal motor vehicle safety standards applicable to that make and model vehicle shall conform to that applicable safety standard unless modified to comply with the federal motor vehicle safety standard designated in this subdivision.

Amended Ch. 924, Stats. 1988. Effective January 1, 1989.
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I have enhanced the reason above. Since the THIRD STOP LAMP is permissive and not mandatory, there is no requirement that it be maintained. ERGO, no PC for a stop; however, as a courtesy you may stop the driver to point out the the stop lamp is not working and is therefore ineffective. In so doing, if you should notice something amiss, you have the opportunity to venture further.

[JoeyMac323]

Thanks for the insight. :cool:

[CHPwannaBE]

I think that more trucks have these third brakelights then other cars. Such as my S-10 has one. It went out and I didn't even notice it but my dad told me I had to fix it so that I won't get pulled over. It ended up only taking two new bulbs which were about a dollar each. Not bad for something that can only add to the safety of driving.

[SB 405]

I think that more trucks have these third brakelights then other cars. Such as my S-10 has one. It went out and I didn't even notice it but my dad told me I had to fix it so that I won't get pulled over. It ended up only taking two new bulbs which were about a dollar each. Not bad for something that can only add to the safety of driving.


Third brake lights have been on cars for years(late 80's?) Only these days car designers have been able to blend them into the bodywork so they are much less noticeable when not lit. Anyone remember when Merdeces had that big ugly extra light mounted on the trunk lid?

[dw]

I have enhanced the reason above. Since the THIRD STOP LAMP is permissive and not mandatory, there is no requirement that it be maintained. ERGO, no PC for a stop; however, as a courtesy you may stop the driver to point out the the stop lamp is not working and is therefore ineffective. In so doing, if you should notice something amiss, you have the opportunity to venture further.


I'm not sure I follow you. Years ago there was a media campaign about Berkeley PD making stops to give "good driving" awards when they witnessed someone complying with law. I always wondered what happened when they made a stop based on "good driving" and then smelled the odor of marijuana from within the vehicle. :shock: (What? It's Berkeley!) How does one justify obeying all laws a PC for a stop?

Regarding the supplemental brake lamp, I believe it is mandated by Federal law on passenger vehicles, but I don't have time to find it right now.

[SweetTaterPie]

I have enhanced the reason above. Since the THIRD STOP LAMP is permissive and not mandatory, there is no requirement that it be maintained. ERGO, no PC for a stop; however, as a courtesy you may stop the driver to point out the the stop lamp is not working and is therefore ineffective. In so doing, if you should notice something amiss, you have the opportunity to venture further.


I'm not sure I follow you. Years ago there was a media campaign about Berkeley PD making stops to give "good driving" awards when they witnessed someone complying with law. I always wondered what happened when they made a stop based on "good driving" and then smelled the odor of marijuana from within the vehicle. :shock: (What? It's Berkeley!) How does one justify obeying all laws a PC for a stop?

Regarding the supplemental brake lamp, I believe it is mandated by Federal law on passenger vehicles, but I don't have time to find it right now.

The Federal Motor Vehicle Standards and Regulations were created by NHTSA, following legislative mandate pursuant to title 49 of the United States Code, Chapter 301 (Motor Vehicle Safety). The standard referred to in CVC 24603 (h), No. 108, basically addresses the following:

Lamps, Reflective Devices, and Associated Equipment - Passenger Cars, Multipurpose Passenger Vehicles, Trucks, Buses, Trailers, (except pole trailers and trailer converter dollies), and Motorcycles (Effective 1-1-68 for vehicles 2,032 mrn (80 or more inches) in width and Effective 1-1-69 for all other vehicles)
This standard specifies requirements for original and replacement lamps, reflective devices, and associated equipment. Its purpose is to reduce traffic crashes and deaths and injuries resulting from traffic crashes, by providing adequate illumination of the roadway, and by enhancing the conspicuity of motor vehicles on the public roads so that their presence is perceived and their signals understood, both in daylight and in darkness or other conditions of reduced visibility

Refer to this link for NHTSA FMVSS info... http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/FMVSS/index.html#SN108
Refer to this link for CFR title 49 info... http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_05/49cfr571_05.html

After consideration I believe that a motorist, while driving a motor vehicle with a defective center-mount brake lamp, whether the vehicle was manufactured prior to the NHTSA mandated addition of center-mount brake lamps, or after, would be subject to a stop under CVC 24252 (a). That section states: All lighting equipment of a required type installed on a vehicle shall at all times be maintained in good working order. Lamps shall be equipped with bulbs of the correct voltage rating corresponding to the nominal voltage at the lamp socket.

After reading PapaBear's post, I re-read 24252 over and over again. I was continuously stymied by the portion I've underlined above. Finally it struck me. Nearly everywhere else in the CVC, when a specific portion of a motor vehicle, or specific piece of safety equipment is addressed, the CVC says, required by this code, or as required in this code, et cetera. That was the deciding factor. 5CFR.49.571.108 details a specific safety standard, #108, implemented by NHTSA to address Motor Vehicle Safety concerns as mandated by the Federal legislature. A high, center-mount brake lamp, in addition to those already installed on motor vehicles, was thereafter required on all new vehicles sold within the US. Because the CVC states "...of a required type...," instead of "...required under and/or in this code...," the third brake lamp in question is a required lighting device, and a part of the vehicle's brake system. I further believe that a motorist can be stopped for CVC 24252 (a), should that part of the brake system be defective.

Lastly, I offer a hypothetical: a guy has a 56 Ford Coupe with no seat belts in it. He eventually gets married and kids eventually happen; however, but he hangs on to the car. Now, he's worried about his wife and kids riding around in the Ford with no safety restraints; so, he installs lap/shoulder harnesses all the way around, front and rear. A few years pass, the guys now hates his wife and ends up divorcing her. She gets the kids and the cash; he gets to keep the Ford. He's having his mid-life and wants to appear like a bad-boy rebel to the young things, while driving his "hot" vintage Ford. He rips the belts out of the car to eliminate any protrusions, should he get lucky. Motor cop rides by and notes the no-belt, but the motor is so intent on donuts and coffee, that he fails to see the now empty D-ring mounted on the upper portion of the 'B' pillar. Car cop begins to pass by a few minutes later and notes the no-belt. He also sees the vacant d-ring, realizes the guy had belts mounted in the Ford, but for some reason removed them. Car cop stops the Ford driver and does what? Writes citation for CVC 27315 (d) 1 or 27315 (f); tells the guys his light ain't working, please get it fixed, because there's no violation; or, he calls his attorney and Area rep, because it's an unlawful detainer?

Of course, I could be entirely full of doo :neutral:

[Tom]

A motor doesn't see the D-ring because he KNOWS that a 56 Ford is not equiped with one standard.

[SweetTaterPie]

A motor doesn't see the D-ring because he KNOWS that a 56 Ford is not equiped with one standard.

So, it's not the call of the donuts and coffee? You motor guys are so easy.......... The point is, once the belts are installed they must be maintained and used as required by law, even if they weren't OEM.

[Tom]

A motor doesn't see the D-ring because he KNOWS that a 56 Ford is not equiped with one standard.

So, it's not the call of the donuts and coffee? You motor guys are so easy.......... :lol:

The point is, once the belts are installed they must be maintained and used as required by law, even if they weren't OEM.

OK...it was the donuts and coffee.

[SweetTaterPie]

A motor doesn't see the D-ring because he KNOWS that a 56 Ford is not equiped with one standard.

So, it's not the call of the donuts and coffee? You motor guys are so easy.......... :lol:

The point is, once the belts are installed they must be maintained and used as required by law, even if they weren't OEM.

OK...it was the donuts and coffee.

Hey, it's not often a cop gets to toss around the "donuts and coffee" aspersion to another cop.:badgrin:

[retchp]

SweetTaterPie wrote:
The point is, once the belts are installed they must be maintained and used as required by law, even if they weren't OEM.

OK, but in your example they have been removed and thus are no longer "installed" therefore there is no duty to maintain them right?

[Tom]

SweetTaterPie wrote:
The point is, once the belts are installed they must be maintained and used as required by law, even if they weren't OEM.

OK, but in your example they have been removed and thus are no longer "installed" therefore there is no duty to maintain them right?

Yea, what he said!:shock: I gotta tell you guys....you lost me....not really hard to do......

[dw]

SweetTaterPie wrote:
The point is, once the belts are installed they must be maintained and used as required by law, even if they weren't OEM.

OK, but in your example they have been removed and thus are no longer "installed" therefore there is no duty to maintain them right?

Similar argument to the "can I remove my rear seats and make a two-seater for carpool purposes?" (The answer is no, by the way -- vehicle capacity for HOV lane purposes is based on the design capacity.)

[Tom]

SweetTaterPie wrote:
The point is, once the belts are installed they must be maintained and used as required by law, even if they weren't OEM.

OK, but in your example they have been removed and thus are no longer "installed" therefore there is no duty to maintain them right?

Similar argument to the "can I remove my rear seats and make a two-seater for carpool purposes?" (The answer is no, by the way -- vehicle capacity for HOV lane purposes is based on the design capacity.)

I don't think it is the same arguement because in the example the car didn't come equiped that way.(OEM) I think its a different arguement......although I'm still not sure what is correct:sad:

[Slim]

I believe we have had SROVT's stating if the light was out it was good to go for being stopped. This was based on California adopting FMVL's a few years back, this made CA vehicle's subject to federal regulations that NHTSA is involved in. I have made stops for the center brake light at night and issued correctables and also hooked deuces from this. The DA files but we all know the DA's don't always know everything.

[SweetTaterPie]

SweetTaterPie wrote:
The point is, once the belts are installed they must be maintained and used as required by law, even if they weren't OEM.

OK, but in your example they have been removed and thus are no longer "installed" therefore there is no duty to maintain them right?

Similar argument to the "can I remove my rear seats and make a two-seater for carpool purposes?" (The answer is no, by the way -- vehicle capacity for HOV lane purposes is based on the design capacity.)

I don't think it is the same arguement because in the example the car didn't come equiped that way.(OEM) I think its a different arguement......although I'm still not sure what is correct:sad:

Like I said before, I could be full of doo. :neutral:

[TopDogg]

I believe we have had SROVT's stating if the light was out it was good to go for being stopped. This was based on California adopting FMVL's a few years back, this made CA vehicle's subject to federal regulations that NHTSA is involved in. I have made stops for the center brake light at night and issued correctables and also hooked deuces from this. The DA files but we all know the DA's don't always know everything.

You are correct, there was an SROVT covering the issue concerning the third brake light.
An officer can cite section 24252 (a) VC (lighting devices shall be maintained in good working order / includes Federally mandated lighting equipment)
:cool:

[JoeyMac323]

Thanks guys!

[bcjack]

SROVT???????????

[SweetTaterPie]

SROVT???????????

SROVT is a super secret acronym. Its true meaning cannot be divulged without serious repercussions to the recipient, and possible physical harm to the squealee. Actually, SROVT refers to a series of hypothetical law enforcement scenarios presented during briefings. The scenarios stimulate officers toward refreshment of their training, and critical examination of their job-related knowledge base. A very useful tool, usually.

[Tom]

SROVT???????????

We could tell you but we would have to kill you.

Oops..I see you have been told...sorry........

[PeckerHead]

So, does this line of thinking and 24252 A CVC also apply to the daytime running lights on the front of vehicles? Gee whiz, how many Chevy/GMC p/u's and suv's have you seen with one of their DTRL's not working? I think they must come from the factory that way!:biggrin:shock:ubt: