Firefighter Involved in Fatal Fire Engine Crash Charged

[bcjack]

Interesting follow-up to this story...

http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?sectionId=46&id=51205

[G-Man]

"If he gets convicted, innocent people will lose their lives and property will burn," McHale said by phone from Sacramento. "It will be fought with everything the fire service can muster."

that is pretty gutsy to say, i know if my house burns down who I can point blame at and sue now...:confused:

[SB 405]

Oh please,all that is gonna happen if one guy gets put away:rolleyes: Where do these guys get this crap?

[LAWNMUSIC]

"If he gets convicted, innocent people will lose their lives and property will burn," McHale said by phone from Sacramento. "It will be fought with everything the fire service can muster."

that is pretty gutsy to say, i know if my house burns down who I can point blame at and sue now...:confused:

I don't think he meant that they are going to let people die or property burn on purpose out of spite, but Engineers would possibly be required to respond a lot slower to incidents to cover their six. Slower response time=more time to burn, etc. Similar to when an agency changes its pursuit policy, or stops pursuits all together, after an innocent bystander gets hurt or killed.

[bcjack]

Not to reveal policy specifics, but we do have a policy that states we SHALL NOT travel any more than xx mph over the posted speed limit when responding with lights and siren (For those of you that are pre-SEMS/NIMS/ICS, that's Code 3) FOR ANY REASON...That applies to everything from the S-15 Fire Inspector's toy pickup to the 110 foot ladder truck.

Working as a Duty Chief, I find it really difficult to convince my F-250 pickup to not exceed xx mph over the posted speed limit at 0300 hrs. on a 4-lane divided roadway, with visibility of nearly 1/2 mile. BUT....We all know what will happen the first time I do it....BANG, here comes the car out of nowhere, and guess who gets hit????

In addition, we have the clause that states we must drive at a speed that is prudent for the conditions present (RAIN, FOG, WIND, HEAVY TRAFFIC...), and the clause that holds the Company Officer (Engine or Truck Captain) responsible for the driver's actions also.

BOTTOM LINE....SLOW DOWN....DRIVE DEFENSIVELY...

REMEMBER...YOU DO NO ONE ANY GOOD IF YOU DON'T GET THERE, AND WHEN YOU CRASH, YOU ADD TO THE PROBLEM...:cry:

[Officer_Grady]

dang bcjack, you should be fire EVOC as well as PIO. Can't help if you can't get there, goes throughout anybody who has a red forward light.

[makakona]

"If he gets convicted, innocent people will lose their lives and property will burn," McHale said by phone from Sacramento. "It will be fought with everything the fire service can muster."

that is pretty gutsy to say, i know if my house burns down who I can point blame at and sue now...:confused:
read the paragraph prior to the one you quoted. if he IS convicted, it most certainly sets a precedence and requires policy review... which could very likely lead to policy change. and the more fingers involved, the more red tape put up. it's easily a snowball situation that very well COULD lead to minutes wasted. and when your house is burning down, life and death and salvag(e?)able property is measured in the most minute ("my-noot," not "min-it!") time increments.

from the subject line, i expected this to be an article on the engine versus tour bus that got the fd all riled up with mait's findings. what ended up happening with that, anyone know?

[chico.medic]

BcJack, That's what I call a WOW. (Words Of Wisdom.) I'm quite disappointed in my companies EVOC training. It's all classroom stuff. You can talk to people all day about defensive driving, but it takes an individual to put it to practice. Because private industry ambulance is historically underpaid, we tend to have a high turnover rate. The majority of our employees are 20 something, right out of EMT or Paramedic school. Not everyone, but the vast majority seem to think that because we have lights and siren we can go mac 4 down city and residential streets. I've heard the argument "well the cop's do it!" Too bad the cops have formal EVOC training and are driving a CVPI that is not quite as heavy as a Ford E-350 Van loaded with 3,000 pounds of extra equipment, and stock brakes. I've rode with some pretty nutsy drivers.....blowing blind intersections @ 40+, doing 90+ on the freeways. People are not looking for us, they're listening to Tool @ 40,000 decibels while talking on their cell phones, drinking their coffee and touching up their makeup. Hell, ford even had an advertising campaign about their new quiet interiors. (The add talked about keeping the annoying noises of the world on the outside and distinctly had a fire engine siren with air horn in the background.) All it takes is one 16 y/o kid with his 4 friends in the car (because he doesn't give a damn about his licence restriction) pulling into your path and ***BANG*** Bye bye house, car, and freedom. Hello bubba, new cell mate and boyfriend because you were criminally negligent and the kid's daddy is a hot shot lawyer.

[chico.medic]

On a side note......One of the Officers I did a ride-a-long with was floored when he found out what it takes to drive an ambulance code 3. [Class C, written test @ DMV for your ADL (Ambulance Driver Licence), and a company to employ you.] I'm sure there are agency specific requirements, but it's nothing compared to the training CHP or any other LEO gets. Plus we respond Code 3 to EVERYTHING! As long as it comes through the 911 system.

In my county we have a mutual aid agreement with the different LE agencies. If they have officers responding to any kind of domestic, we will respond to a staging area. Most times we pass the responding agency (We were sent code 3 and they respond code 2), we pull over and shut down around the corner and they drive right by us, clear the scene and send us in. Kinda dumb.

[David]

A California Highway Patrol accident report found that Arizaga had been driving too fast for the rainy conditions, had not removed an emergency brake and had failed to ensure that all firefighters aboard the engine were wearing seat belts.


Moral of the story: be sure to remove the emergency brake, make sure everybody's wearing their seatbelt, and take it easy in the rain.

[G-Man]

In my county we have a mutual aid agreement with the different LE agencies. If they have officers responding to any kind of domestic, we will respond to a staging area. Most times we pass the responding agency (We were sent code 3 and they respond code 2), we pull over and shut down around the corner and they drive right by us, clear the scene and send us in. Kinda dumb.

that is wierd, when I worked on the ambulance and was called for mutual aid by law enforcement for that type of stuff we were told to respond code 2 by dispatch. ie, to SWAT raids and DV's and such. the PD's knew and expected a little longer ETA considering you are going to be responding to sit around the corner anyway.

[bcjack]

chico.medic:

You'll love this...

For our ANNUAL MANDATORY Defensive Driving Training (8 hours MANDATORY) we spend 4 hours in the classroom and take a test, then we take the fire engines, ladder trucks, and everything in between and go to our airport for some hands-on driving. We work on reaction time and general driving of the vehicles. NOOOOOO SKID PANS OR PURSUIT TYPE DRIVING...:cry: But we actually get evaluated and get a pass/fail score.

Pass = go back to work...fail= do it over until you get it right.

MISS THE MANDATORY TRAINING...DON'T DRIVE UNTIL YOU MAKE IT UP!!!:badgrin:

[chico.medic]

chico.medic:

You'll love this...

For our ANNUAL MANDATORY Defensive Driving Training (8 hours MANDATORY) we spend 4 hours in the classroom and take a test, then we take the fire engines, ladder trucks, and everything in between and go to our airport for some hands-on driving. We work on reaction time and general driving of the vehicles. NOOOOOO SKID PANS OR PURSUIT TYPE DRIVING...:cry: But we actually get evaluated and get a pass/fail score.

Pass = go back to work...fail= do it over until you get it right.

MISS THE MANDATORY TRAINING...DON'T DRIVE UNTIL YOU MAKE IT UP!!!:badgrin:

Yea, but how cool would that be.......a 110' rear mount Aeriel on a skid pan!!!!!!!:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

[G-Man]

chico.medic:

You'll love this...

For our ANNUAL MANDATORY Defensive Driving Training (8 hours MANDATORY) we spend 4 hours in the classroom and take a test, then we take the fire engines, ladder trucks, and everything in between and go to our airport for some hands-on driving. We work on reaction time and general driving of the vehicles. NOOOOOO SKID PANS OR PURSUIT TYPE DRIVING...:cry: But we actually get evaluated and get a pass/fail score.

Pass = go back to work...fail= do it over until you get it right.

MISS THE MANDATORY TRAINING...DON'T DRIVE UNTIL YOU MAKE IT UP!!!:badgrin:

Yea, but how cool would that be.......a 110' rear mount Aeriel on a skid pan!!!!!!!:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

thats a fire truck right? all i know is they are big, red and they like to run off with P-1 before you can interview them. :biggrin: lol

[chico.medic]

You'd like me then. I wait, and ask the officer if he would like to talk w/ my patient before I leave.....or let him know there is a helicopter coming to take the pt to the trauma center 30 miles away, and he has 10 min to talk to them before they're flying the friendly sky's.

[bcjack]

G-man:

We only rush the really sick ones away before the CHP Officers get to chat with them, and most of the time, our firefighters don't know P-1 from P-101. And only for medical necessity...Yes the aerial is a fire truck...In our case, it has a 110 foot ladder on it...But it is green, not red....RED IS DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!:badgrin:

[bcjack]

Makakona:

You are right on...99.9 % of all Firefighters would absolutely NOT do anything intentionally that would make a situation worse, or contribute to someone's death or injury. What this incident could result in is...policy review as you stated, and the apparatus operator's being paranoid about being charged with a crime, disciplined, causing a death or injury, thus driving slower.

Whenever an unfortunate incident such as this one occurs, charges or not, civil action or not...We all take a deep breath and reflect on how we drive on a daily basis. This crash actually caused us to re-write our policy and changed they way we do business.

BOTTOM LINE STILL IS...IF YOU DON'T GET THERE...YOU ARE CONTRIBUTING TO THE PROBLEM...NOT THE SOLUTION!! :smile:

AND...

REMEMBER...YOU DO NO ONE ANY GOOD IF YOU DON'T GET THERE, AND WHEN YOU CRASH, YOU ADD TO THE PROBLEM

[Mac]

You'd like me then. I wait, and ask the officer if he would like to talk w/ my patient before I leave.....or let him know there is a helicopter coming to take the pt to the trauma center 30 miles away, and he has 10 min to talk to them before they're flying the friendly sky's.
You obviously don't work for AMR, then! :lol:

[chico.medic]

You'd like me then. I wait, and ask the officer if he would like to talk w/ my patient before I leave.....or let him know there is a helicopter coming to take the pt to the trauma center 30 miles away, and he has 10 min to talk to them before they're flying the friendly sky's.
You obviously don't work for AMR, then! :lol:

No, I don't make as much as they do, don't have the benefits they do and I definitely don't have a 401K.:biggrin:shock:ubt: And plus, I'm in the hiring process, I gotta make face somehow.:cool:

[David]

thats a fire truck right? all i know is they are big, red and they like to run off with P-1 before you can interview them. :biggrin: lol Here's an example: http://www.americanlafrance.com/interior.asp?n=2016&p=1006%20&s=0 :cool:

[bcjack]

David:

Nice Truck...WRONG COLOR!!!!!!!!!!:badgrin:

[David]

David:

Nice Truck...WRONG COLOR!!!!!!!!!!:badgrin: Meh, real fire trucks/engines are red and use the Federral Q-siren. Anything else is just an imitation. ;)

But just to make you happy, a safety green Emergency One HP105: http://www.e-one.com/aerialshp105.asp :biggrin:

[chico.medic]

Oroville City Fire has a nice new La France........But out of their fleet of beautiful yellow engine's, I cant fathom why they got a red one!
This is a TC I had back in March, and it's why I love my Tacoma. This one got hit by a full size Suburban @ a combined speed of 85MPH. The SUV had damage past the B post. Toyota 1, SUV 0. You can see OFD Engine 111 (Rated second busiest engine in the state) in the background
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b215/chico_medic/Work%20Stuff/3-6-057ptmci.jpg
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b215/chico_medic/Work%20Stuff/7ptmci3-6-05Grand7th.jpg
On the left... OFD E-111, E-112 and Truck 121...On the right is Butte County Fire/CDF E-55 and OFD's Utility truck....Oh, and wayyyyyyy in the back, that's my ambulance.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b215/chico_medic/Work%20Stuff/DSC00943.jpg
Should have kept the original color scheme.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b215/chico_medic/Work%20Stuff/DSC00941.jpg

[DESERT RAT]

I've taken on-duty emergency vehicle crashes before. The thing that absolutely drives me nuts is; In the vehicle code 21055 V.C. emergency vehicles during (Code 3) are exempt from a whole host of V.C. sections including speed, double yellows, right of way. The next section 21056, states that the driver has to have due regard for the safety of persons, or property..... Ok, my question is: Is due regard 5 mph over the speed limit, 10 mph over, 15 mph over? Is it checking the intersection 1 time, 2 times...etc... It is so, grey and subjective! It's like trying to figure out some PCF's one officer will swear that if a tire blows out the PCF is other than driver, others hold that the tire is not the PCF its 22107 because the driver hit the brakes and turned the steering wheel to the L/R and crashed. Traffic collisions can be really subjective.

What get's my goat is: why do they give us 21055V.C.? Is it because "They" want us to turn on our lights and siren and drive the speed limit and follow all of the rules? If that is the case then just give us a V.C. section for lights and sirens no exemptions to rules of the road. Either we should be excempt from the rules of the road, Period or we are not period!

Collisions/ Fatalities are gonna happend no matter how safe of a driver we are. There are two many drivers on the road with HUA, not to mention all of the visitors from overseas, who have no clue what to do when they see Red/Blue in the rearview!

JMO...

[SB 405]

Going back to the photos....You're right chico,the "A" piller on that Toyota looks pretty straight considering the impact appears to have been on the drivers side of the front end.

[retchp]

21055 VC exempts EVO from some rules of the road.
21056 states you must drive with "due regard" when taking that exemption.

That 21056 section is a CYA section for the state in the case of ricky racer who slips through the cracks of Academy training and drives like an idiot on the street. Once he hangs his A** out too far the department can legally step away from him and say, " we never told him/her to drive like that!"

Due regard means common sense and must be used event specifically in my opinion.

In your example Rat you show an exemption for driving left of Double Yellow Lines. Due regard would apply in a case where on a heavily traveled mountain road with DYL in place and heavy holiday weekend traffic an officer responding code three just crossed the lines on blind curves and figured God, his red light and the department would make it OK. Not likely. He did not drive with "due regard"...for the circumstances then present.
Hope that helps and I'd welcome further discussion. I always liked this sort of topic.

[bcjack]

ANOTHER POINT TO PONDER...

When displaying the red and/or blue lights and sounding the siren, you are ASKING FOR THE RIGHT OF WAY!!! there is no absolute or guarantee...

You must ALWAYS remember that most people don't give a s*** about your lights and siren, and in fact, Scr** you and your lights and siren. Their thought process includes..."I have someplace to be, and you are inconveniencing me by flashing those lights and blowing that siren."

JMO after 32 years of doing it...

Darth:
Where is the phaser when you need it???:badgrin:

[G-Man]

G-man:

We only rush the really sick ones away before the CHP Officers get to chat with them, and most of the time, our firefighters don't know P-1 from P-101. And only for medical necessity...Yes the aerial is a fire truck...In our case, it has a 110 foot ladder on it...But it is green, not red....RED IS DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!:badgrin:

i know i worked on an ambulance for 2 years before I got hired. it was a joke.:biggrin:

[chico.medic]

[SB 405]

In most cases here in LA the people who work for an ambulance company such as AMR really want to work for a major fire department so they use AMR as a stepping stone. I don't think these private ambulance companies pay very well which in turn may lead to the saying "you get what you pay for"

[chico.medic]

This is a TC I had back in March, and it's why I love my Tacoma. This one got hit by a full size Suburban @ a combined speed of 85MPH. The SUV had damage past the B post. Toyota 1, SUV 0.
Going back to the photos....You're right chico,the "A" piller on that Toyota looks pretty straight considering the impact appears to have been on the drivers side of the front end.

No, I actually meant the "B" Post. We assess two things: Damage-Any exterior body damage to the vehicle up to and including the firewall, and Intrusion-Any damage intruding into the passenger compartment space. Inside of the firewall, outside of the firewall (When looking at a frontal impact.) I was commenting that there was no intrusion past the B post. I know I said "Damage" :shock:ops:

[chico.medic]

i know i worked on an ambulance for 2 years before I got hired. it was a joke.:biggrin:

I'm not sure what context you mean that in, but I'm inclined to take offense. I mean sure, the majority of our contacts are crap, but is what I do for a living a joke to you when you catch one just above your vest?

[Flying Pig]

I rode out with AMR in Riverside when I was doing my EMT, I will have to say I was very impressed with the crew I rode with. As a police officer, I was always impressed with the Paramedics and EMTs I worked with on calls and T/C's. Especially watching them on a major injury accident or a serious medical aid. One of which was awarded a Life Saving Medal from the Police Department related to a call I was on. AMR also provides the Tactical Medics for some of the SWAT teams in Riverside as well. Being on SWAT I had the chance to work woth them. Very dedicated. In 7 years working in So Cal, I don't know that I would be so quick to say many were using it as a stepping stone. I pretty much had contact with the same guys/gals during that 7 year period. Sure a few left here and there....my PD even hired one as a cop. I was actually shocked to find out the level of training required to become a paramedic...and even more shocked to find out what they get paid....or what they dont get paid. And I definitely didnt think ambulance crews were a joke when they had to come to my house when my 3 yr old daughter tripped and knocked herself unconcious....and overheard them talking about if they needed Mercy Air to come or not.
Its just like being a cop.....the vast majority of your calls are boring, routine, and un rewarding. But its the suspense of waiting for the big one, and the desire to be in the middle if the S$%# that keep us all coming back to work regardless of the color of uniform you are wearing.

[SB 405]

Pay was just one reason I made the "stepping stone" comment. I've talked with a few of my brother-in-laws Fireman buddies over the years and many of them started out working for a private ambulance company as a way to get a foot in the door with the department. However I'm sure with a company as large as AMR you are bound to get more than a few who make it a career.

[chico.medic]

Its just like being a cop.....the vast majority of your calls are boring, routine, and un rewarding. But its the suspense of waiting for the big one, and the desire to be in the middle if the S$%# that keep us all coming back to work regardless of the color of uniform you are wearing.


Well put. Thank you for your perspective.

One of our Medic supervisors works with the Butte Co. SIRT (Special Incident Response Team). I'd love to get involved, but you need to be a level 1 reserve deputy w/ the S.O. and all I have is my PC-832.

[23112]

i know i worked on an ambulance for 2 years before I got hired. it was a joke.:biggrin:

I'm not sure what context you mean that in, but I'm inclined to take offense. I mean sure, the majority of our contacts are crap, but is what I do for a living a joke to you when you catch one just above your vest?

Chico.medic,

I'm not G-man, but I don't think you need to take offense to his comment above. The "it" in "it was a joke" was not a reference to being a medic, but to his previous post where he referred to fire trucks as things that "...like to run off with P-1 before you can interview them." BC Jack replied that FD's only run off with collision vics when it's a medical necessity. So G-Man then replied that because he worked on an ambulance, he knew why the FD's "ran off" with injured people and clarified that "it was a joke" when he originally stated they take our vics away before we can interview them (i.e., he was saying that tongue-in-cheek). At least, I'm pretty sure that was the context of the thread...hard to tell since the conversations are all broken up into two-sentence bits all over a page! :smile:

I'm pretty confident that all the officers here appreciate any other emergency responders.

[chico.medic]

Chico.medic,

I'm not G-man, but I don't think you need to take offense to his comment above. The "it" in "it was a joke" was not a reference to being a medic, but to his previous post where he referred to fire trucks as things that "...like to run off with P-1 before you can interview them." BC Jack replied that FD's only run off with collision vics when it's a medical necessity. So G-Man then replied that because he worked on an ambulance, he knew why the FD's "ran off" with injured people and clarified that "it was a joke" when he originally stated they take our vics away before we can interview them (i.e., he was saying that tongue-in-cheek). At least, I'm pretty sure that was the context of the thread...hard to tell since the conversations are all broken up into two-sentence bits all over a page! :smile:

I'm pretty confident that all the officers here appreciate any other emergency responders.

Wow, he said, she said, they said. LOL, when you put that conversation together it makes sense. :shock:ops: Sorry.

[bcjack]

OK...I meant we don't rush patients from the scene to screw with officers so they can't interview P-1.

We rush the really sick patients to the hospital before the officers get to interview them so they (the patients) don't die.

Most firefighters don't have a clue what you are talking about when you refer to "P-1", "P-2", "P-99", "P-1000", and most don't care.

We are ALL part of the TEAM that fixes other's screw-ups. People crash...People get hurt...People get dead...

Firefighters treat their injuries, clean up their haz-mat, and secure the vehicles...

Ambulance personnel doctor them up and take them to the hospital...

Hospital people try to fix the broken people and make them well...

Officers determine what happened, keep the stupid drivers from running us all over, and put the bad guys in jail...

Tow truck operators clean up the junk and help get the traffic moving again...

Road personnel fix the road, direct traffic and help clean up the mess...

NEWS People report the stories and help us get the message out about what people should do to not be involved in a crash...and...

The Mortuary people take care of those that the TEAM couldn't fix.

Hope that cleared that mess up...:biggrin:

[G-Man]

thanks for clarifying 23112. you hit the nail right on the head. I thought it made it pretty clear when I wrote it...:biggrin: no hard feelings chico, just pay closer attention to detail next time. remember, i did it (working on an ambulance) for a living too, I know how things work in your line of work. when I worked on an ambulance I ran gunshots, stabbings, and car crashes and I had no idea what the cops needed before i scooped and ran (one time I left the scene with a Police officer in the back of the ambulance, and his car was left on scene). You are not trained to know what we need, that is why we get trained to know what we need :smile: which is why it was a joke... not your job, lemme clear that up before you go postal again. I mean nothing but the best, we are all on the same team and i would never intentionally make fun of another person because of their chosen profession nor i would expect it in return.

[chico.medic]

just pay closer attention to detail next time.
The problem with the internet is that tone cannot be implied, It was an honest mistake.
lemme clear that up before you go postal again.
That's a bit of a subjective assessment. I wouldn't say I went postal, just engaging in healthy debate. :rolleyes: LOL
I mean nothing but the best.
Which is why I apologized when I realized I had made an error. I was "Owning up to my mistake." I enjoy this forum and it has been nothing but helpful.