Maximum Speed vs. Speed Limit

[dig]

Do those two mean the same thing, or what?

[SB 405]

Let me take a shot at this....Max speed is the maximum speed allowed by law. A speed limit is a speed you must maintain as to not impede traffic.....close?

[chp36]

I'll try to explain this in a way that is understandable. Hope it is clear enough to answer your question.

Maximum speed is the top (legal) speed allowable to travel upon a highway. This maximum speed is 55 miles per hour on a two lane highway (ie: country road) and 65 miles per hour on majority of California freeways unless otherwise posted.

Speed limits are set towards the determined safe speed limit for a given roadway. (ex. 25 mph in residential areas, some sections of rural freeways are 70 mph, other sections of freeways still have a speed limit of 55 mph and some roads in city limts may be set from 25 mph to 30, 35, 40, 45, etc.) These speeds are determined by engineering and traffic surveys.

Hopefully this answered you question if not maybe someone else can better explain it in layman terms. Just remember wether it is a maximum speed or speed limit, violating the posted limit may end up with the same end result.

[SB 405]

Can a person be cited if they exit the freeway above the posted exit speed limit (talkin' off ramp speed) To be honest I'm always over what's posted. And is the posted number the law or simply a recommended speed?

[dig]

Anything in black in white is just that....black and white...LAW

Anything in Yellow/Black is cautionary.

[chp36]

Can a person be cited if they exit the freeway above the posted exit speed limit (talkin' off ramp speed) To be honest I'm always over what's posted. And is the posted number the law or simply a recommended speed?

Typically speaking, you are going to be encountering a stop sign or signal at the end of that ramp so you should be reducing your speed accordingly to prepare to stop. If the speed limit is posted, maximum speed or speed limit, it is the law and you can be cited for exceeding that posted limit. Believe it or not, you can even be cited for speeds less than the posted limit in adverse conditions (ex. reduced visibility due to fog or other conditions, heavy rain etc.). Just a thought, for these adverse conditions, you have to drive with common sense and due regard for the safety of those around you.

[Badkharma]

This may be a stupid question, but you either look stupid for 5 minutes asking it or you ARE stupid the rest of your life because you never asked it. This I never understood: Example - the freeway is 65 mph, then the exit is 25 mph. Usually the exit speed limit sign is posted at the very entrance to the exit ramp. TECHNICALLY, is one supposed to slow down ON the freeway and enter the exit at 25 mph (sounds pretty dangerous)? Or should that person exit at 65 mph and HAMMER on the brakes until 25 mph? Can someone theoretically be cited for speeding on an offramp (assuming they were obeying the freeway speed limit and just exited)?

[chp36]

This may be a stupid question, but you either look stupid for 5 minutes asking it or you ARE stupid the rest of your life because you never asked it. This I never understood: Example - the freeway is 65 mph, then the exit is 25 mph. Usually the exit speed limit sign is posted at the very entrance to the exit ramp. TECHNICALLY, is one supposed to slow down ON the freeway and enter the exit at 25 mph (sounds pretty dangerous)? Or should that person exit at 65 mph and HAMMER on the brakes until 25 mph? Can someone theoretically be cited for speeding on an offramp (assuming they were obeying the freeway speed limit and just exited)?

First of all, in most cases, such as this one, there is no such thing as a stupid question. To answer your questin those off ramp speed limit signs are typically yellow in color and are advised speed limits. However, take heed in the warning that comes with that advised speed limit, there is a good reason for the advisory. If you are not mindfull of the advisement you may end up on your head after you enter that curve at a speed much greater than that speed limit. In most cases, you have time to let off the accelerator and slow down as you approach the off ramp then slow down to the recommended speed on the ramp before entering the curve or whatever hazard has warranted the posting of that speed limit.

[Mac]

Advisory speeds (the ones on yellow signs) are simply that - they're advising of the safe speed for a particular area. In the case of curves, ramps, etc., CalTrans used to set those advisory speeds by using a "ball-bank indicator". They'd traverse the corner at various speeds, and the point where the ball reached a certain point (implying a certain g-force) was the speed at which the advisory was set. Not sure if they still do it the same in today's high-tech world.

As far as maximum speed limits - technically it's a violation to do 1 mph over a "maximum" limit, and the defense that it was safe to do so doesn't hold any water....nor does "I didn't know how fast I was going". Traffic laws are "general intent" laws - proof that you willfully broke the law isn't needed....just the fact that you broke it, whether you realized it or not.

People also sometimes don't seem to realize that just because a freeway is posted 65 mph maximum speed, that doesn't mean you can do 65 in blinding rain, or in fog so heavy that you can't see 10 feet ahead of your car! :rolleyes: As chp36 said, you can still be cited in those situations for violation of the Basic Speed Law (22350 VC), which says that you shall not drive faster than is safe and prudent for conditions....and in most cases, it's a well-deserved ticket.

[23109]

People also sometimes don't seem to realize that just because a freeway is posted 65 mph maximum speed, that doesn't mean you can do 65 in blinding rain, or in fog so heavy that you can't see 10 feet ahead of your car! :rolleyes: As chp36 said, you can still be cited in those situations for violation of the Basic Speed Law (22350 VC), which says that you shall not drive faster than is safe and prudent for conditions....and in most cases, it's a well-deserved ticket.

And if one of us has to get out of the car and into the rain to talk to you, chances are you aren't talking your way out of that ticket. :biggrin:

[bg17067]

Interesting discussions....working an RP I've forgotten about freeway ramps and 22349(a).

[Your Mentor]

What's a "Ramp?"

[Tom]

What's a "Ramp?"

Its what you load your dirtbike into your pickup with..............DUH!

[25/31]

Interesting discussions....working an RP I've forgotten about freeway ramps and 22349(a). Sounds like its time to come back to the 375.......:razz: :razz: :razz:

[bg17067]

Sounds like its time to come back to the 375.......:razz: :razz: :razz:

My wife was actually talking about that over the past few weeks...until the issue of receiving standby pay came up...now I don't think she's as anxious to leave the RP.

[Mick]

Black on yellow is "advisory." Black on white is prima facie unless it states "Maixmum" above the speed.

Anything in black in white is just that....black and white...LAW

Anything in Yellow/Black is cautionary.

[Sportbiker]

ok i think im going to get hammered on this one but, in all fairness, i just was thinking about the speed limit. Two things i have always thought should happen:

1.) if the maximum speed limit in america is 80 mph (for example) we should then govern all motors to go no more than that! Why not?? if you get pulled over from a cop and they ask you why you were speeding and you give them a "im late" response, theyll just say leave earlier....plan better...

2.) this kinda contradicts number one, kinda....but if there are two speed limits on one road (typically one for cars and a slower one for semi-trucks) then why can we have a higher speed limit for motorcycles?? i ride my bike well (i know there are a lot that dont, but same goes for the drivers in cars....) and driving at 65 mph on the freeway is like going 40 in a car! you just have the abilility to go faster....so i propose a third speed limit...one for semis one for cars and one for motors....we are able to stop quicker, why couldnt we go faster??

just a thought!

[retchp]

Because you're a squid???

[Sportbiker]

Because you're a squid???

Im not understanding your response retchp....are you saying this because im a squid so therefore, i think like this??? or cause im a squid i would think id get hammered.....or are you trying to confirm that i am a squid or not???

[G-Man]

well, accroding to the MSF rider saftey course a motorcycle takes just as much space to stop as a car. then factor in your average reaction time is still 1.5 seconds (like everyone else) and travelling at a faster speed means in that 1.5 seconds you will travel that much further. not to mention the fact that you have half the rubber on the road than a car, meaning half the traction. then, you have to take into consideration the majority of motorcycle riders may not be as skilled on a bike as you are, but will still go that higher speed. just like the 16 year old with the brand new license and the keys to daddy's BMW.

PS. not to put words in his mouth, but i think he was calling you a squid.

[Sportbiker]

ahhh makes sense...that the vehicle is all that, but at the same time makes me think...i have half the rubber, but i have a 1/4 of the weight if not less. meaning less machine to stop and accelerate. I have better response on a bike than i do ANY vehicle....its true you are able to just slam on the brakes and the car just stablizes itself...but i cant honestly believe that a dodge 2500 cummins turbo diesel V8 mega cab, or a honda civic for that matter has the same stopping distance as a Yamaha R6!??

[Tom]

ahhh makes sense...that the vehicle is all that, but at the same time makes me think...i have half the rubber, but i have a 1/4 of the weight if not less. meaning less machine to stop and accelerate. I have better response on a bike than i do ANY vehicle....its true you are able to just slam on the brakes and the car just stablizes itself...but i cant honestly believe that a dodge 2500 cummins turbo diesel V8 mega cab, or a honda civic for that matter has the same stopping distance as a Yamaha R6!??



Well it depends...can you brake bringing both tires to impending skid and leave it there for the duration of the stop? Most motorcyclists cannot. Most modern day cars and trucks with 4 wheel abs can do exactly that...with absolutely no guesswork....just stab and stay on the pedal. Until recently most motorcycles are not equiped with abs and thus braking distance typically suffers.

[Mac]

Well it depends...can you brake bringing both tires to impending skid and leave it there for the duration of the stop?
...and more importantly, do it while remaining upright? The coefficient of friction for a motorcycle sliding on it's side is significantly lower than when on it's wheels! :shock:ops: Second problem - what if you're in a curve? Hard brake applications while leaned over tend to bring you upright rather forcibly, often resulting in a highside. Traversing a curve at a speed much higher than a car isn't a problem at all - it's safely STOPPING in a curve as safely and efficiently as a car that creates the problem.

[Sportbiker]

mac....good point...tom good point.....

BUT what is the ratio of cars (old and new) with ABS....not that many have it...it doesnt come standard even now adays....
and mac...what if we just add the speed change for the freeway, its typically stop and go traffic in town anyways....increasing the speed there will result in more exhibition of speed with acceleration...just do it on freeways....

[G-Man]

again, the response time on a motorcycle is the same as the response in a car because it lies within the operator not the vehicle (ie. it takes 3/4 of a second for what you see to get to your brain and another 3/4 of a second for your brain to send a signal to the muscle whicle hits the brakes). as for stopping distances, it is not slamming on the brakes i am talking about. it is bringing the vehicle to a safe and controlled stop. preferably without popping the rear wheel off the ground:biggrin:

[23112]

Sportbiker, after you make it through the Academy and work the road for a few months, you might have a different opinion about the motoring public going faster than they already are. Can you guess what the #1 cause is for most crashes I take?

[Sportbiker]

Sportbiker, after you make it through the Academy and work the road for a few months, you might have a different opinion about the motoring public going faster than they already are. Can you guess what the #1 cause is for most crashes I take?

i could only guess....speeding? over correcting, loss of control of the vehicle??

thats an interesting point you make. I only see life on the road as a civilian so far...

[Mick]

I got an average of 0.2012 seconds reaction time. May people get way under that.

See yours here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sleep/sheep/reaction_version5.swf


well, accroding to the MSF rider saftey course a motorcycle takes just as much space to stop as a car. then factor in your average reaction time is still 1.5 seconds (like everyone else) and travelling at a faster speed means in that 1.5 seconds you will travel that much further. not to mention the fact that you have half the rubber on the road than a car, meaning half the traction. then, you have to take into consideration the majority of motorcycle riders may not be as skilled on a bike as you are, but will still go that higher speed. just like the 16 year old with the brand new license and the keys to daddy's BMW.

PS. not to put words in his mouth, but i think he was calling you a squid.

[Sportbiker]

that is crazy....haha...damn sheep put me to sleep...good night!

[23112]

Sportbiker, after you make it through the Academy and work the road for a few months, you might have a different opinion about the motoring public going faster than they already are. Can you guess what the #1 cause is for most crashes I take?

i could only guess....speeding? over correcting, loss of control of the vehicle??

thats an interesting point you make. I only see life on the road as a civilian so far...

Good guess: unsafe speed for traffic, road, or weather conditions. I'm with you in that it's definitely fun to go fast (get this job and you'll satisfy that desire regularly). However, I definitely don't want most people travelling faster because I already deal with the aftermath of the speeding that already happens.

Of course, people that chug along like slugs on the freeway are pretty stinkin' dangerous, too! :smile: Especially the ones who see us coming in their rear-view mirrors and drop their speed down to 55 to prove how extra-safe they are. :biggrin:

[Sportbiker]

when in fact they are causeing more problems being that "safe"

[dw]

I got an average of 0.2012 seconds reaction time. May people get way under that.

See yours here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sleep/sheep/reaction_version5.swf


There are several problems with the linked test in regard to real-world driving.

First, even if it were a valid test (see argument below), it is only a test of reaction and does not account for perception. (each accounting for .75 seconds of our 1.5 second total)

Second, the test is not valid to test reaction because the net reaction required is to move my index finger 1/32nd of an inch to press the mouse button. I don't believe that is an accurate representation of someone who most likely has their foot on the throttle and needs to move it to the brake before application can begin. It may come close to modeling someone who is covering the brake pedal prior to a stimulus, but I think it would still take a bit longer.

We also need to remember this is an average. Yes, many people will be faster, but many will be slower. I know for a fact that under ideal conditions I can perceive and react (in a vehicle) in less than 1.5 seconds. I also know there are many people that take longer and that we are not always in prime condition We share the road with people of varying abilities and the argument that I can drive my car safely at 100 miles per hour does not fly. You may have the best car and training available to go with your cat-like reflexes, but we still have to plan for the lowest common [legally permitted] denominator.

[chico.medic]

Okay DW, I think your just bent because you were rated as an "Ambling armadillo". :lol: :rolleyes: I saw the test and immediately thought "WTF?" Well, I myself am a "Bobbing bobcat"......Maybe I can turn that in for my EVOC recert. :biggrin:shock:ubt:

[Dolmen]

ahhh makes sense...that the vehicle is all that, but at the same time makes me think...i have half the rubber, but i have a 1/4 of the weight if not less. meaning less machine to stop and accelerate. I have better response on a bike than i do ANY vehicle....its true you are able to just slam on the brakes and the car just stablizes itself...but i cant honestly believe that a dodge 2500 cummins turbo diesel V8 mega cab, or a honda civic for that matter has the same stopping distance as a Yamaha R6!??


I'm a sportsbike rider too, and I'm afraid there's a couple of flaws in this reasoning.

Mechanically speaking, braking has very little to do with weight, it's almost solely about the level of grip at the tires, heavier vehicles generate more downforce which gives them more braking force, provided they're equipped with brake rotors suitable for their size, most vehicles can stop in a surprisingly short distance.

Braking forces in the absence of aerodynamic downforce are going to result in a deceleration of around 1g for a decent car or bike with decent tires (and it's a testament to modern tire engineering that we can exceed 1g at all).

Sportsbikes are generally fitted with high performance rubber and so we can generally slow down at around 1.2g, a car equipped with decent tires and brakes can pretty much match that, so don't assume that sportsbikes can outbrake anything on 4 wheels because mechanically it isn't so and in fact there are quite a few sports cars that can outbrake us given that they have 4 sticky tires each with contact patches a lot bigger than ours.

When you're riding a sportsbike, your survival is based on one thing, observation. It doesn't matter what your reaction time is or what your machine is capable of, you can't avoid a hazard if you've never seen it.

Saying that sportsbikes should have their own speed limit because the machines are more capable than the average family saloon is forgetting one major thing, the average riding ability of the US sportsbike rider, which, I'm sorry to say, is pretty bad, sure there are a small percentage who know what they're doing and can ride quickly perfectly safely, but the majority of US motorcyclists are undertrained, poorly equipped and a lot of them are quite frankly, just plain dangerous.

Until the level of training and licensing requirements for sportsbikes in California gets even remotely close to the level provided for by European countries, you can't even begin to suggest that sportsbikes (and similarly sportscars by the same reasoning) should have their own laws.

[JMuZz87]

Mechanically speaking, braking has very little to do with weight, it's almost solely about the level of grip at the tires, heavier vehicles generate more downforce which gives them more braking force, provided they're equipped with brake rotors suitable for their size, most vehicles can stop in a surprisingly short distance.

Braking forces in the absence of aerodynamic downforce are going to result in a deceleration of around 1g for a decent car or bike with decent tires (and it's a testament to modern tire engineering that we can exceed 1g at all).




I know nothing about the aerodynamics of brakes other than, my car goes through a set of pads a year, and I hate replacing them...

[Your Mentor]

Take a fatal or two in the Canyon involving sportbikers racing near the Rock House (West Valley's Area) and you won't have much faith in their immature rocket science. Don't forget that we get to clean up THEIR messes which usually involve severe mutilation and obiturary tag lines like, "He died doing what he loved . . ." It's like the street racers that insist they're as skilled as any professional NASCAR driver. Ego is a terrible thing; but not a terrible thing to waste. You know what a Duccati looks like after it's totalled? It looks just like a Yamaha Enduro that's been totalled. Like a heap of metal with tissue, bone chips, and blood twisted into it. The real world is far different than a chalkboard discussion of vehicle dynamics. You want to join this department kids then it's time to grow up and start PROMOTING safety and conservative driving. The BI's are looking for MATURETY above all othe traits.

[Sportbiker]

Take a fatal or two in the Canyon involving sportbikers racing near the Rock House (West Valley's Area) and you won't have much faith in their immature rocket science. Don't forget that we get to clean up THEIR messes which usually involve severe mutilation and obiturary tag lines like, "He died doing what he loved . . ." It's like the street racers that insist they're as skilled as any professional NASCAR driver. Ego is a terrible thing; but not a terrible thing to waste. You know what a Duccati looks like after it's totalled? It looks just like a Yamaha Enduro that's been totalled. Like a heap of metal with tissue, bone chips, and blood twisted into it. The real world is far different than a chalkboard discussion of vehicle dynamics. You want to join this department kids then it's time to grow up and start PROMOTING safety and conservative driving. The BI's are looking for MATURETY above all othe traits.

SO TRUE!! But yet that is one really gross detail. kinda puts things back into perspective, cause honestly the ratio crap was boring the heck out of me. I saw bikes weave in and out of traffic today, going down 50 and up Watt...i was just thinking that if they even flinched the wrong way, they were gunna go down....hmmm. they should make the M1 license harder to obtain....

I got mine in 3 days, years ago, and i can honestly see myself getting better and better each week. It takes time to learn to drive, and yet the best of us are still caught off guard in some way!

You want to race, pay to get into the track! its worth the money!

[Dolmen]

Take a fatal or two in the Canyon involving sportbikers racing near the Rock House
Guy I know was nailed up on Latigo last weekend, some guy on a GSX-R 750 went into a tight corner too hot, ran wide, crossed the DY, plowed straight into this guy head on. Gixxer guy died, other guy is in hospital with all manner of nastiness.

Really makes me wish the M1 endorsement was harder to obtain, hah, "harder" implies it's even slightly difficult in the first place.

I wish the US would adopt European standards for driver and rider training, in the UK it's damned difficult and bloody expensive to get a motorcycle license and if you get caught riding without one, it's even more expensive and you could be facing jail time.

[Retread]

Mechanically speaking, braking has very little to do with weight, it's almost solely about the level of grip at the tires, heavier vehicles generate more downforce which gives them more braking force, provided they're equipped with brake rotors suitable for their size, most vehicles can stop in a surprisingly short distance.

Braking forces in the absence of aerodynamic downforce are going to result in a deceleration of around 1g for a decent car or bike with decent tires (and it's a testament to modern tire engineering that we can exceed 1g at all).

Sportsbikes are generally fitted with high performance rubber and so we can generally slow down at around 1.2g, a car equipped with decent tires and brakes can pretty much match that, so don't assume that sportsbikes can outbrake anything on 4 wheels because mechanically it isn't so and in fact there are quite a few sports cars that can outbrake us given that they have 4 sticky tires each with contact patches a lot bigger than ours.



Greetings from a long time listener, first time caller and hopeful retread.

Over the summer (long gone up here in the midwest), I was traveling in the outside lane of the local interstate with a hopped-up Yamaha of some kind in my blindspot when a crash happened in front of us. Both of us stabbed the brakes about the same time and I came to a stop at least 50-100 feet sooner than him with my fullsize mid 90's Impala SS. The biker almost ate the semi trailer because the rear end was getting loose on him during the panic stop, and he had to keep letting off the brakes to keep from dumping the bike.

Sorry for bringing this thread back from the dead but seeing this post reminded me of that experience. It freaked me out a little because I thought the rider was going to buy the farm right in front of me. I'm just glad GM put the big brakes on my car, as it stops in very respectable distances from 60-70 mph...usually on the order of ~130 feet. Something like 50 feet doesn't sound like much until you are the unlucky guy/gal that hits something because it took you those 50 extra feet to come to a sudden stop.

[Dolmen]

Over the summer (long gone up here in the midwest), I was traveling in the outside lane of the local interstate with a hopped-up Yamaha of some kind in my blindspot when a crash happened in front of us. Both of us stabbed the brakes about the same time and I came to a stop at least 50-100 feet sooner than him with my fullsize mid 90's Impala SS. The biker almost ate the semi trailer because the rear end was getting loose on him during the panic stop, and he had to keep letting off the brakes to keep from dumping the bike.

This to me just doesn't sound like the guy knows how to brake properly, cars and bikes generally stop in a pretty similar distance, provided they're both fitted with high performance tires, the harder, longer wearing touring tires that you get on things like Harleys don't give anything like so much traction (and in my experience the riders of said bikes aren't up to the level of sports bikers when it comes to machine control, or in fact sobriety, but that's another argument).

A bike's real advantage in this situation is that we don't have to swerve quite so far to avoid something, being only 3' feet wide we can either dive into small gaps or in a full on swerve we don't have to go nearly as far.

To be honest though, the key here is observation and following distance, if you have enough space in front of you and are paying enough attention you should be avoiding the accident long before you have to panic brake. In 10 years of riding, testing and training aside, I can honestly count the number of times I've had to swerve or panic brake on the fingers of one hand.

[dw]

...the thread that just wouldn't die...

[dig]

...the thread that just wouldn't die...
sorry ;)