i guess we wont be getting the s&w yet.

[RoadDog4Life]

Suit targets CHP purchase of pistols
$5.3 million order for Smith & Wessons violated contract rules, rival gun seller says.
By Andrew McIntosh -- Bee Staff Writer
Published 12:01 am PDT Wednesday, July 12, 2006
Story appeared on Page A3 of The Bee

Print | E-Mail | Comments (:cool:

Pistol seller SigArms Inc. has gone to court to stop the California Highway Patrol from taking delivery of its new pistols, alleging that the department's recent $5.3 million order for Smith & Wesson guns violated state contract rules.
A hearing is set for Thursday on the temporary restraining order against the CHP and the state Department of General Services.


"Our goal is not to get the courts to give us the contract, but just to give us a fair shot at winning the contract," said Eric Cook, SigArms' general counsel.
With the help of the state's purchasing arm, the Department of General Services, the CHP in May ordered 9,736 Smith & Wesson 4006TSW pistols from All State Police Equipment Co., a Southern California distributor. The CHP also arranged to trade in its older Smith & Wesson 4006 pistols under the same deal.

Delivery of the new guns is set to start July 28.

Spokespersons for the CHP and General Services declined to comment on the lawsuit or SigArms' allegations, though senior officials of both agencies have denied that their departments breached state contract rules.

Smith & Wesson was not named in the suit, and Vice President Liz Sharp had no comment.

The Bee reported June 11 that the CHP restricted public bids for its new pistols to a single Smith & Wesson gun, even though SigArms offered almost identical weapons for $2.2 million less.

SigArms had complained in private letters to CHP Commissioner Mike Brown and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger that the deal broke state contracting rules requiring open bidding on major government purchases.

Despite claims by General Services officials that the bidding was open because there were four potential suppliers of Smith & Wessons, The Bee found that only one -- All State Police Equipment Co. of Pomona, a law enforcement distributor -- actually was able to bid.

SigArms attorneys cited The Bee article in its court filings, saying the company now believes General Services' earlier statements about the existence of multiple bidders were untrue, calling into question the bid process.

The Smith & Wesson 4006TSW semiautomatics that the CHP is buying are a modernized version of its current 4006 pistol, purchased between 1990 and 1994.

Commissioner Brown denied his agency violated any contracting rules, and he has vigorously defended the deal.

Brown said the CHP picked Smith & Wesson because of concerns about the costs of switching to a new pistol, including training costs as well as safety issues related to officers using unfamiliar guns.

He couldn't accept a SigArms bid, Brown said, because an executive order prevented the CHP from trading in old guns to anyone but their manufacturer. However, The Bee reported that the CHP had other options, which it didn't pursue, and failed to ask the governor to rescind or amend the order.

On July 2, The Bee reported that the CHP sold 197 guns to its retiring officers in 2005-2006 even as it argued it had to quickly award a no-bid contract for new Smith & Wesson pistols, saying it might be short 169 guns for new recruits this summer.

In memos to General Services officials, CHP officials cited the looming gun shortage and deteriorating condition of its 15-year-old guns as key reasons why they didn't have time to run a formal gun testing and bid process.

However, a newly disclosed CHP memo shows that agency gunsmiths at the West Sacramento Academy already were "evaluating issues" with the older Smith & Wessons in July 2005 and "preparing recommendations for executive management" after gun failures in El Cajon.

In court documents filed Monday in Sacramento Superior Court, Randall L. Erickson and Theresa C. Lopez, Irvine-based attorneys for SigArms, suggested that the various reasons the CHP has given to restrict bids to Smith & Wessons were all pretexts.

"The true reason the CHP requested Smith & Wesson pistols was convenience," they argued. "A temporary restraining order will preserve the status quo pending the court's review of the validity of the contract and the circumstances leading up to its award."

The attorneys are asking the court to void the gun contract on grounds that the CHP and General Services gave inadequate justification for restricting the bids.

Because All State was the only bidder that could respond to General Services' call for Smith & Wesson pistols, the attorneys said that the appearance of competitive bidding was a sham.

"The fix was in from the get- go," Erickson said in a recent interview. "The internal documents show the CHP had already negotiated the trade in credit for their old Smith & Wesson guns even before they put the bid out."

[dw]

Old news... I can't locate the story, but the order was denied, IIRC.

[BoySergeant]

Old news... I can't locate the story, but the order was denied, IIRC.

Any truth to the rumor that, when finally realizing we were running short on weapons, someone with stars or bars said go ahead and purchase the TSW without a formal contract or any type of bidding? It was only after they realized the predicament they were in did they begin the bidding process... anyone hear anything or am I, once again, talking out of my posterior?

Let me guess... you could tell me but you'd have to kill me.

:biggrin:

[BoySergeant]

[5-0]

two words , "STAND DOWN!!!"

[rollie pollie]

Mike Brown will be forever known for saying those famous words.

[Officer_Grady]

two words , "STAND DOWN!!!"
I thought it was "Step it up." This admin keeps "stepping in it."

[pupdog]

OK, confused wannabe cadidiot here...

Smith & Wesson is a company, right? So if CHP specifies that they want a Smith & Wesson gun, I don't quite understand why Sig is peeved about not getting to bid on producing a Smith & Wesson gun. Can another gun manufactuere (Sig) produce a Smith & Wesson style; is that it?

Could someone who understands all this break it down for me? Thanks!

[Officer_Grady]

pup, you say the dept wanted to buy SW guns. Here's a chance to buy better handguns for the men and women who serve this state. Wouldn't you consider buy a Mercedes instead of a Ford if you had an opportunity?

[rollie pollie]

NO WAY! that's why we're going back to Harleys, even if the Harley's cannot pass the test, and leaving the bmw.....
the fair bid procedue was to make it open to any manufacturer that had a weapon chambered for the s&w 40 cal. (hk,beretta,sig,glock.etc) and not say "limited to and only the s&w 4006 TSW .40 cal." that like saying...ok chp is taking bids for the mer benz 500s and only that model. well, you think ford or chev or fiat will bid?

[Radar]

NO WAY! that's why we're going back to Harleys, even if the Harley's cannot pass the test, and leaving the bmw.....
the fair bid procedue was to make it open to any manufacturer that had a weapon chambered for the s&w 40 cal. (hk,beretta,sig,glock.etc) and not say "limited to and only the s&w 4006 TSW .40 cal." that like saying...ok chp is taking bids for the mer benz 500s and only that model. well, you think ford or chev or fiat will bid?


:confused: Maybe I'm reading your post wrong... That's very possible. But, "limited to and only the s&w 4006 TSW .40 cal." is exactly what happened. SigArms still sent in a bid offering their own weapon and they were denied because the contract called for supplying only the S&W 4006 TSW. And, in this case, it is exactly like the CHP saying "we only want the Mercedes Benz 500s" and having Ford, or Chevy, or Fiat bidding one of their own vehicles...

[dw]

OK, confused wannabe cadidiot here...

Smith & Wesson is a company, right? So if CHP specifies that they want a Smith & Wesson gun, I don't quite understand why Sig is peeved about not getting to bid on producing a Smith & Wesson gun. Can another gun manufactuere (Sig) produce a Smith & Wesson style; is that it?

Could someone who understands all this break it down for me? Thanks!

The State is generally required to purchase items through a bid process. Specifications are written, whether it be for printer paper, computers, vehicles, guns, whatever. Companies bid and the contract is awarded to the lowest qualified bidder. I'm sure I am oversimplifying the process, but that's the idea.

In this case, as Radar mentioned, we included in the specs, that the gun must be produced by a given manufacturer. Multiple vendors were allowed to bid, but they had to provide S&W guns. (i.e. when "Harely" or "BMW" bid on motorcycles, it is usually independent dealers who are actually bidding, rarely is it the actual company)

As I understand it, the debate centers on the ability and legality of specifying a single manufacturer in the specs.

[webfoots]

I don't know a whole lot about guns so... Any ideas on why it was open only to S&W? Do they have very good guns or is this there some pressure in or out of the dept. to stick with the same company?

What are the opinions of the guns from officers?

[dw]

I don't know a whole lot about guns so... Any ideas on why it was open only to S&W? Do they have very good guns or is this there some pressure in or out of the dept. to stick with the same company?

What are the opinions of the guns from officers?

http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/pistols.html

[webfoots]

In April of 2005 the WTU began research on a replacement primary duty pistol for the Department. The WTU considered .40 caliber pistols from Smith & Wesson, SigArms, Glock, and Beretta. The recommendation of the WTU was for the Department to fully convert to the S&W 4006 TSW over the next three years. This pistol is an updated version of the S&W 4006 and had already been tested, proven, and evaluated by the Department. The Department currently owns 300 such weapons and they have been utilized by the Special Weapons and Tactics Team for the past four years. Conversion to the S&W 4006 TSW was viewed as a continuation of the current weapon since they are essentially identical. Moreover, the Department had found the S&W 4006 to be a reliable and field proven weapon, which was simply demonstrating normal indications of age and wear.

In considering replacement of the current weapon, the Department gave significant weight to officer safety and the impact upon field operations. The decision to continue utilizing the S&W 4006 in its current form was founded in the knowledge the conversion would have virtually no negative impact upon officer safety or operations. Since the TSW is identical in operation to the current weapon, each officer upon receiving a replacement weapon would be required to only complete the normal annual qualification course. The TSW provides an improved version of the current weapon, while taking full advantage of years of familiarity and training. Officers continually train with their assigned weapon; e.g., shooting, reloading, and malfunction drills. Weapon function is a learned skill and must be intuitive for officers to instinctively draw and fire their weapon, perform reloads, and correct malfunctions in situations where seconds can determine life or death.


Not to take this thread too off topic, but if this is true for the S&W why wouldn't it be true for the BMW motor units?

[Tiredmotor]

I think its funny that the comissioner and the DGS quote "Officer safety" as a reason to only bid for the TSW. Sure is practical to throw that term around when it suits "them." What about vests, helmets, cars, uniforms, bikes, other tactical gear and how they relate to Officer safety?....we sure could use a lot of better of those other things too.

And to answer the question about the BMW/Harley...here it is...some nerd somwhere (that makes those decisions on this Department) has a Harley and he/she thinks its cool. I'm serious.

[NorCalN00b]

Just get GLOCKS. :cool:

[5-0]

I think its funny that the comissioner and the DGS quote "Officer safety" as a reason to only bid for the TSW. Sure is practical to throw that term around when it suits "them." What about vests, helmets, cars, uniforms, bikes, other tactical gear and how they relate to Officer safety?....we sure could use a lot of better of those other things too.

And to answer the question about the BMW/Harley...here it is...some nerd somwhere (that makes those decisions on this Department) has a Harley and he/she thinks its cool. I'm serious.

hahahah!!! who said anything about officer safety..you think they really care..."it was a business decision", commisioner kevin greene. you are right, they will never ride, or drive or patrol for that reason...,they sit in an air conditioned office all day, away from reality and make decision for the road, those people dont even know where there 40 is.
by the way....has anyone seen my black bag????? you know how much that cost the state $$$$$$$ someone made a killing.

[TheForceCHP]

Just get GLOCKS. :cool:

Shoot a Sig and then say that. I would love to see Sig get the contract.

Also, something else to make it a little more confusing. Currently the CHP has S&W .40 that uses a S&W .40 caliber round. S&W (from what I remember reading) created the .40 caliber round and owns the rights to the name or something like that. Now when you read about a Sig you are still going to see S&W mentioned, why? The reason is that it uses S&W .40 caliber round in the Sig gun.

The CHP has all its people that work on the guns certified through S&W. Going to Sig will make things slightly more complicated at certain stages. From what I gather, and opinions of gun people that I talk to, the Sig is a better gun. I have shot the Sig and Glock .40 caliber and would have to say that I really like the Sig, but I have not shot a S&W yet and the reason behind that is gun people I know like the Sig better, thus own that, and also my local shooting range doesn't like them and thus doesn't have any to rent. From what officers say, it looks as if the whole thing about officer safety and price points being why they went with S&W, sounds like that is all political talk and that in reality sounds like people just don't want to change. Didn't an officer on this site say that BMW offered the 5series for less then the crown vic? Why then does the CHP not use the BMW... I would assume that it would have a little to do with all of there equipment is set up for the Ford, like everything is set up for S&W, and they don't want to have to change and train everything for a different vehicle.

Most of what I wrote above is my opinion that I have gathered from reading/talking to officers and different people, in the end though sounds like it all comes down to somebody at the top making the decision.

[rollie pollie]

I think its funny that the comissioner and the DGS quote "Officer safety" as a reason to only bid for the TSW. Sure is practical to throw that term around when it suits "them." What about vests, helmets, cars, uniforms, bikes, other tactical gear and how they relate to Officer safety?....we sure could use a lot of better of those other things too.

And to answer the question about the BMW/Harley...here it is...some nerd somwhere (that makes those decisions on this Department) has a Harley and he/she thinks its cool. I'm serious.

hahahah!!! who said anything about officer safety..you think they really care..."it was a business decision", commisioner kevin greene. you are right, they will never ride, or drive or patrol for that reason...,they sit in an air conditioned office all day, away from reality and make decision for the road, those people dont even know where there 40 is.
by the way....has anyone seen my black bag????? you know how much that cost the state $$$$$$$ someone made a killing.

that's funny man, you know how many black bags i have to kick a round to get to my locker....i lost count. i kick some more on my way to briefing. i'm surprised no one has sold them yet at ebay, or is there?

[rollie pollie]

Old news... I can't locate the story, but the order was denied, IIRC. yup, by some judge that answers to arnold! how convenient.

[KingFrankSam]

by the way....has anyone seen my black bag????? you know how much that cost the state $$$$$$$ someone made a killing.

You're right, someone got rich, but not with the State's money. Those were bought with a federal grant. Also, all L.E. agencies bought WMD gear and training, nationwide. I shoulda bought stock in gas masks...

[ka4993]

http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/pistols.html

Other than the weight of the gun I don't care what we carry as long as it works if I ever need it;)

[NorCalN00b]

Just get GLOCKS. :cool:

Shoot a Sig and then say that. I would love to see Sig get the contract.

Also, something else to make it a little more confusing. Currently the CHP has S&W .40 that uses a S&W .40 caliber round. S&W (from what I remember reading) created the .40 caliber round and owns the rights to the name or something like that. Now when you read about a Sig you are still going to see S&W mentioned, why? The reason is that it uses S&W .40 caliber round in the Sig gun.

The CHP has all its people that work on the guns certified through S&W. Going to Sig will make things slightly more complicated at certain stages. From what I gather, and opinions of gun people that I talk to, the Sig is a better gun. I have shot the Sig and Glock .40 caliber and would have to say that I really like the Sig, but I have not shot a S&W yet and the reason behind that is gun people I know like the Sig better, thus own that, and also my local shooting range doesn't like them and thus doesn't have any to rent. From what officers say, it looks as if the whole thing about officer safety and price points being why they went with S&W, sounds like that is all political talk and that in reality sounds like people just don't want to change. Didn't an officer on this site say that BMW offered the 5series for less then the crown vic? Why then does the CHP not use the BMW... I would assume that it would have a little to do with all of there equipment is set up for the Ford, like everything is set up for S&W, and they don't want to have to change and train everything for a different vehicle.

Most of what I wrote above is my opinion that I have gathered from reading/talking to officers and different people, in the end though sounds like it all comes down to somebody at the top making the decision.
I read the .40S&W cartridge is the scaled down version of 10mm. S&W sales has been poor and they're dieing for a contract. S&W discontinued their good guns so that's why their sales has been poor.

I think the CHP is staying with S&W because they're an "American" company. Same goes for the BMW thing. While I'm sure there are import cars that can outperform the Crown Vic, it just wouldn't look right to see a cop patrolling the streets in an import.

I think the new Toyota Avalon would make a kick-ass police cruiser.

http://static.flickr.com/32/98913023_31a1c067b4_o.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/42/95420957_9a4f69e035_b.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/43/101415906_4a4d7d60a3_b.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/31/99895482_3c608fc10d_b.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/37/104478792_6fcbd7e8e4_b.jpg

This sweet honey has a 3.5L V6 w/268HP @ 6200RPM, 248 lb-ft @ 4700RPM.

Fuel efficient of a V6, power of a V8. Sounds good to me. And this thing has more backseat legroom than the Crown Vic.

[Tiredmotor]

When America can produce a product as good as some of the imports...I'll buy American. I have an american full size truck because I think its the best, but, my wife owned a VW, then a honda and now a FJ cruiser (toyota) because for what she wants..it's the best. I think its a ludicrous idea to buy something out of national favoritisms.

Harley Davidson motorcycles CANNOT compare to a BMW for a freeway ride...Period...I've ridden them both. The Highway patrol should get whats BEST for its Officers..not whats best in the "eyes" of the public.

[RoadDog4Life]

just on a side note, the sacramento bee newpaper reported that the smith and wesson stocks actually raised 5-6 percent and closed high that day they were awared the contract. so tell me this, if you had prior info that smith was gonna get the contract and you went out and lets say bought 100,000 shares......well, i really dont have to go any further...i think you all see my point.
this actually stemmed from what horatio wrote about buying stocks from the gas mask manufacturer. well and it goes on to the harley issued also, lets all buy harley stocks. since either way harley is getting the contract, i'm just running my mouth here. who knows anyomre, i just work the road, and in a few years, you all can fight over it. i dont even know why they are offering me to buy this 40 i carry, it s an anchor!!! why cant they sell us the shorty when we retire? who needs an anvil to carry around?

[David]

Wouldn't you consider buy a Mercedes instead of a Ford if you had an opportunity? Mercedes doesn't offer any police package vehicles to the best of my knowledge.;)

[Mac]

Wouldn't you consider buy a Mercedes instead of a Ford if you had an opportunity? Mercedes doesn't offer any police package vehicles to the best of my knowledge.;)
Actually, they do - just not here in the U.S. They're used in several European countries.

[bcjack]

Another vote for the GLOCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:biggrin:

[25/31]

[quote=5-0]by the way....has anyone seen my black bag?????



LOL forgot about that dust collector..........

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[DReed]

Since we're beating a dead horse with this thread.....i'd rather have a desert eagle 50 cal on a shoulder holster...or maybe just a big leg holster for my AR-15 and maybe a clip attachment at the bayonet mount so I can use it to hold driver's licenses. "Sir, i stopped you for expired registration...just attach your DL, Reg and Insurance to my AR-15". Whatever it is, give me ammo to shoot and time to practice and I don't care what else happens.